Stupid question

Discussion in 'Horns' started by musicalmason, Mar 3, 2004.

  1. musicalmason

    musicalmason Forte User

    Dec 14, 2003
    Ok, I play a bach strad 180 37. I know of other people who have bach student horns TR200's and 300's. Now I am not a beginner, I have played their horns and mine. I feel the difference, I hear the difference in intonation and sound. I know that they are different. But heres the stupid question what exactly is physically different from the strad to the student models? They look similar but I know that means nothing, I was just wandering where the physical difference is that makes the strad so much better than the student. Thanks.
  2. trpguyy

    trpguyy Piano User

    Nov 26, 2003
    Others can answer more thuroughly, but I believe the materials and the overall quality are worlds apart. Plus there are lots of little things on the Strad that aren't on the student modles (i.e. different mouthpiece receiver, fixed ring, bracing, stop rods, etc.)
  3. Ash

    Ash Pianissimo User

    Jan 18, 2004
    As with (most) profesional horns, they have a one-piece bell, probably the biggest single difference.
  4. mheffernen5

    mheffernen5 Pianissimo User

    In my opinion, some differents between your beginner trumpet vs. an intermediate or a pro trumpet are: fixed 3rd slide ring, silver plating, and a much better sound.
  5. dHoff

    dHoff Pianissimo User

    Feb 13, 2004
    Woodstock, NY
    I was once told that the stupid question is the one you don't ask. Keep asking!

    I expect that an instrument builder will chime in eventually and speak about things like hand finishing and resultant quality assurance and probably there's something in the materials themselves. Perhaps we can get a guy like Leah or Jack Kanstul who seem to breathe this stuff to chime in.

    I would imagine that even Leah could make less out of a good intermediate horn thatn out of a good pro instrument. I hope we get to hear why.
  6. Tootsall

    Tootsall Fortissimo User

    Oct 25, 2003
    Yee HAW!
    I believe that if you go to Jim Donaldson's website, and read the section titled "What Pro Quality Bb Trumpet Should I Buy" you'll get about as good an idea of the difference as from anywhere else. It isn't realistic to say that "Pro horns have one piece bells".... they all don't. It is equally as unrealistic to say that "Student horns have adjustable 3rd valve finger rings".... Jon Faddis' S42L has an adjustable ring and "he ain't no student".

    Nor could one say with absolute certainty that "all student horns have relatively loose valves to allow for dirt, crud, and poor technique by students". That's not an absolute neither... some of the trumepts that are (or were) called "student trumpets" such as the Olds Ambassador are used ON THE GIG by pros today.

    It really is an overall combination of the design, responsiveness, sound quality, fit and finish that make a trumpet a "pro model" or a "student model" (although the large marketers would have us believe that if you pay more than $XXXX for a new trumpet you are going to get a "pro" horn) So does price distinguish between "student" and "pro"? Come on.. we know better than that. Does Kanstul 609 or 710 ring a bell? They are sold TO the student market but from the reports could just as easily be used in profession settings where they may even be better than trumpets marketed at twice the price.

    So what is it that determines whether a trumpet is a student model or a pro model? My answer would be.... tada.... whatever it's owner decides it is. I currently play a Schilke and will soon be receiving an Eclipse. I am most definitely an amateur (which means..."not pro"). Does this make my trumpets "student" or "intermediate"? I don't think so.

    Uhh. there is one label that I think we can all agree on, however.

    JUNK from certain Asian countries.
  7. Thevor

    Thevor Pianissimo User

    Oct 24, 2003
    Next to the Volcano
    One of the major differences between the "pro" horn and an entry level (student) horn is the choice of materials and more importantly the manufacturing process. The differences aren't necessarily noticable to the eye. Its difficult to see the difference between a production stamped bell vs a hand made bell. And unless you open up the valves, things like the plastic used for the valve alignment would never be seen. Beginning trumpets are made with nickel-plated valves while most professional trumpets are made with monel valves. Additional spit valves and added rings round out the differences between the two. On "pro" horns the attention to an exceptional finish should be expected.

    Selling points like one peice bells, single valves vs. two piece valves tend to be more frosting than actually affecting the dynamics of the horn. This becomes entirely a subjective want and desire for the player.

    One difference is that student-line trumpets tend to have smaller lead pipes and bells, which offer some resistance. This allows for the student to spend less time fighting the horn an easier time in learning. It would take reaching a certain skill level before a person would notice that a entry level horn offers more resistence. The "pro" horns are more open and free blowing which can be attributed to the larger lead pipes and bells.
  8. dHoff

    dHoff Pianissimo User

    Feb 13, 2004
    Woodstock, NY
    That's the kind of explanation I was hoping to hear. I would question the statement

    It seems to be easily misinterpreted. I do know pros who like a lot more resistance than some amatuers. I am sure there are some statements about the blowing characteristics of pro vs student horns that would be more precise.
  9. trumpetpimp

    trumpetpimp Piano User

    Dec 6, 2003
    There's also the matter of the amount of time to put together a trumpet and how much is done by hand. In the Yamaha world, trumpets with model numbers that start with 1, 2, and 4, are student models and are done mostly by assemply line and machine. Those that start with 6 and 8 are the professional models and more time is taken to put them together by less people. Ones that start with 9 are considered custom and are put together and adjusted by one guy sitting at bench until that one trumpet is complete. I hear new Malone C's will likely have the model number 9445CS or 9445NS(for Chicago or New York). They take forever to make, will cost doule what a Xeno costs, and they'll likely be of the highest quality.

    I have heard similar stories about Olds horns. Although all their horns are excellent you might have one guy making Ambassadors who is expected to make 30 trumpets in a week and the guy who makes Recordings only has to make 5. I'm making up these numbers but it gives you an idea. This is also the reason for the cost and reputation of horns like Eclipses, Blackburns, and Monettes. They take a friggin' long time to build and much more care is in the manufacturing process than a student model and even most pro horns.
  10. Thevor

    Thevor Pianissimo User

    Oct 24, 2003
    Next to the Volcano

    It's funny that you pointed out the one statement I debated keeping in. (I actually removed it at one point :D ) I was afraid it might be and obviously has been misunderstood. Clearly, there are some pro's that like a horn with more resisitance. Compared to student horns though, most "pro" level horns offer less resistance and tend to be more "free blowing". Again, there are exceptions to everything.

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