Thank you Mr C. I will give them a try. I am not trying to be girly about this, but honestly, I have these long flowing silky type shirts I like to wear when performing and teaching. I am so $&*(<! that most of them are stained within hours of being in contact with a trumpet. I just put it down, whether sitting or standing, and the valve bottoms/oily water key naturally lie in that area. Even though I prefer cotton always, when I work, I wear mostly synthetic materials or silks. I think this is why I am having such problems removing the stains.