Testing A Possible New Way To Tune A Trumpet

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Dr.Mark, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    All notes on a trumpet have overtones. A trumpet doesn't produce a pure sine wave.
     
  2. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    I have heard it for myself, as demonstrated to me by a music professor at the University of Dayton. It is amazing. I played my Olds my Getzen and Kanstul and if I would have stopped there, I would have believed you. When you play a tuning note against the chord using the tuning note as the root of the chord, you will hear these overtones. When you play this on a vintage Martin Committee, there are no overtones, just the tuning note. Perhaps its all additive in phase, but there is only one note you hear. Only on the Martin. The only horn that tunes left and right to the piano A. This trumpet plays a pure tone... no overtones. Again try it. It is amazing to hear.
     
  3. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    Hi Brian,
    The test is over 18 pages back so I've put a copy of it closer to the latest posts so people will know what the thread is about and won't have to dig around to find it.
    If possible, try this little test out on your trumpet(s) and see what you find.
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    FIRST, TAKE THE TUNING SLIDE OUT AND REINSERT THE TOP PORTION OF THE TUNING SLIDE BACK IN THE TRUMPET. THE BOTTOM PART OF THE TUNING SLIDE WILL BE POINTED BACK TOWARDS YOU AND NOT TOUCHING THE BELL.
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    THE TWO PITCHES MATCH:
    A. Ping the bell rim of your trumpet so you can hear the tone given off.
    B. Next, blow a steady stream of air into the mouthpiece and adjust the pitch of the air by holding the bottom part of the tuning slide and moving it back and forth like a trombone slide. The objective is to match the pitch of the air to the tone that was given off by the bell rim. No buzzing!! just a steady calm stream of air.
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    THE TUNING SLIDE
    A.While moving the tuning slide, find the distance where the pitch of the air matches the pitch of the bell rim.
    B. Divide that distance in half and mark it with a small dot using a with a magic marker.
    C. The tuning slide is then reinserted into the trumpet in a normal manner but only up to the dot .
    ---------
    OUTCOME
    A.When the slide is put back in the trumpet up to the half way point, the slide is where the trumpet is normally in tune (taking temperature into account).
    -----------
    The List of Trumpets That Had Positive Results:
    1.King 600
    2.King 2055T Silver Flair (post -UMI)
    3.Kanstul 1600WB
    4.Getzen Eterna Doc Model (30-40 yrs. old)
    5.Holton MF Horn (30 to 40 yrs. old)
    6.Olds Ambassador 1965
    7.Olds Mendez
    8.Shires Destino III with a Monette B2S3 classic mouthpiece
    9.Martin Committee Med. Bore 1953
    10.Martin Committee Large bore (1940's)
    11.King Silver Flair 1055 pre-UMI
    12.Yamaha 4xxx and 6xxx
    13.Andreas Eastman
    14.Rembrandt
    15.Olds Super
    16.Olds Studio
    17.Holton ST 307 MF Horn
    18.Bach Strad 37 ML
    19.Bach Strad 43
    20.Holton T602R
    21.Olds Recording (1953)
    22.Olds Recordings (1967)
    23.Martin Committee medium bore (1946)
    24.Kanstul 1526 Flugelhorn
    25.Bach Strad 37
    26.Bach Strad 37
    Please encourage others to try the test and if you had positive results, please let us know.
    Thanks again
    Dr.Mark
     
  4. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    The instrument which produces closest to a sine wave is the flute. Check it out on an oscilloscope. Or, listen to the 1kHz calibration tone on a tape recorder - this is a pure (sine wave) sound.
     
  5. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Playing a trumpet works for timbre because we can tell with our own ears if it is bright or dark because we have listened to lots of trumpets in our time--recognizing the timbre is easy for us, just as recognizing an oboe or banjo is. Because we have no reference, bowing a trumpet won't work for timbre.

    By the way, the trumpet produces a sawtooth wave.
     
  6. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    The Committee likely is just not very resonant. It is producing overtones, but they aren't resonating as loudly as other horns. The only way to prove to me that it is not producing overtones would be to play it in to a computer to analyze the sound.
     
  7. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

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    I have an old Martin Committee and when compared to a Schilke or Bach, The thing doesn't seem to ring at all. Kinda dud like. Don't get me wrong! It's a wonderful horn but the overtones just aren't there when compared to the others. I like to use it for jazz.
    Also, when I used the tuning method described on the Martin, it worked.
    Dr.Mark
     
  8. tjcombo

    tjcombo Forte User

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    Let's settle this "pure tone" thing. Hoping this image comes through. It shows a graph of the spectra from three horns - A Committee large bore (I used a Horn Trader YouTube video to get this sample), an Olds Super with a Bach 3C MPC and a Chinese flugel. Each graph used a sample at Bb concert on the stave.

    http://[​IMG]

    As you can see, all horns are rich in overtones. As might be expected, the flugel has less harmonic content than the two trumpets. I didn't try to "light up" the Super, so there's no massive "DC to daylight" spectrum in evidence. Mr Trader on the other hand was showing off a beautiful, fresh from Charlie Melk horn which he did light up as evidenced by the broad spectrum.

    You could probably produce any of the three spectra on most horns by blowing them differently and maybe using different MPCs.

    Anyhow, picture's worth a thousand words - hope it comes up in the post.

    tj
     
  9. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Agreed, but on my Moog synthesizer, when I stet all the oscillators to sawtooth settings AND have all dials set "in phase" I still get a pure tone.
     
  10. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Don't doubt this as well, but it is what you hear that give the perception of the pure tone. For sure, there will be a whole frequency response generated by any horn, but the human perception of a pure tone is what I refer to.
     

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