Testing A Possible New Way To Tune A Trumpet

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Dr.Mark, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    My '67 Fullerton Olds Recording, and '53 LA Olds Recordings tune and sound identical [before and after the spiked eggnog which is better then double blinding by the way].
  2. wlindseypoole

    wlindseypoole New Friend

    Jun 14, 2013
    Tallahassee, FL
    Or maybe....maybe.... maybe I've contracted the N+1...... inquiring minds want to know
  3. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

    Mar 23, 2006
    Parts Unknown
    A loudly played c below the staff will excite a DHC.
  4. redintheface

    redintheface Pianissimo User

    Nov 8, 2010
    Bath, UK
    Ok, I officially tried it, using a downloaded pitch tuner.

    1992 Bach LB 25 w/Kanstul M-B4 (Heavyweight) = not a chance
    1992 Bach LB 25 w/Kanstul M-B4LD = perfect!
    1976 LA Benge w/Kanstul M-B4 (Heavyweight) = perfect!
    1976 LA Benge w/Kanstul M-B4LD = not a chance
    Trombone = sounds like a cow giving birth (but this may not be due to the method ROFL )
    1985 Mario Corso piccolo w/Bach 3F = very good at C in the stave, not so good at other pitches.

    Funnily enough, with the two Bb trumpets, I never play them with the combination that seemed to work.
  5. tjcombo

    tjcombo Forte User

    Nov 12, 2012
    Melbourne, Australia
    It doesn't even have to be loud - the following spectragraphs show C below, on and above the staff played mf. A very vanilla horn/mouthpiece combo - Bach 3C, Olds Ambassador.

    You can see that there are harmonics way beyond DHC on all three notes.

    Vulgano Brother likes this.
  6. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

    Apr 5, 2011
    Hi folks,
    Now that this idea/discovery has been around for a while, here's the question:
    1. Does it work.
    The conventional method suggests that tuning is based on matching the player to the horn.
    The new way suggests tuning the trumpet to itself first and then adjusting yourself to the trumpet.
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    No, it doesn't "work", but there are coincidences that would let the casual observer believe that it does.

    The acoustic length of the instrument (varies with pitch) is the deciding factor BUT not leveraging the resonance of the horn (common among weak players, or those with bad habits) makes tuning a crap shoot for some.
  8. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

    Aug 7, 2013
    Lagos, Nigeria
    Dr Mark,

    I present this data subject to a gentlemen's understanding that you will supply a similar dataset for yourself for http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f131/stumacs-research-project-80867.html#post811700. ;-)

    Instrument hardware: Bb Wild Thing Trumpet (half-round tuning slide) / Denis Wick 2W

    Bell section was measured at 860+/-10 mm and produces a clear 2nd harmonic at 355 Hz (~25 cents above concert F)

    It was just possible to match lead pipe/tuning slide section to this pitch with the tuning slide at maximum pull of 70 mm. The total tubing length inclusive of mouthpiece was 690+/-5 mm.

    Restoring the instrument to a tuning slide pull of 35 mm (total tubing length 1460+/-15mm) produced a best resonance at 230Hz, ~20 cents below concert Bb.

    It should be noted that the lower inner leg of the tuning slide used is 20mm longer than the upper which one would expect to make a significant difference to the pitch produced by the detached lead pipe and tuning slide, though not the reassembled instrument.
  9. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

    Apr 5, 2011
    Here's what you (rowuk) reported when you tried the new tuning method.
    1.All of my students Yamaha 4xxx and 6xxx models worked.
    2.An Andreas Eastman $600 trumpet worked.
    This method probably does not help players with weak support/embouchures as they play under the resonance of the horn
    This method probably does not work with players that have a lot of body tension as they play higher than the resonance of the horn
    Rowuk, (the casual observer?) what am I going to do with you! Now go and stand in the corner and listen to Porkie Pig perform Blue Christmas for a half hour or until you can play nice.
    For those that are not familiar with this new idea (and hopefully a little less testy), it's pretty simple.
    If you'd like to try it, here are the directions:
    1. Ping the bell rim of your trumpet or if you have a violin bow, bow the bell rim and it will give off a single tone. Some don't but most appear to give off a distinct single tone. Ping or bow the bell rim several times to get the tone memorized.
    2. Remove the main tuning slide and then, put it back in but only put in the top portion of the slide.
    3. Blow a steady stream of air through the trumpet and slowly move the tuning slide back and forth like a trombone slide. The air sound should be coming straight back at you via the bottom portion of the tuning slide.
    4. Listen carefully to the pitch of the air go from high to low as you carefully move the slide back and forth. You will need a quite environment.
    5. Ping the bell rim again just to refresh your memory.
    6. Blow air through the trumpet and adjust the slide to match the tone of the bell rim.
    7. Once you find it, take a pencil and mark where the slide is and measure the distance.
    8. Divide the distance in half and mark it with a pencil.
    9. Put the tuning slide back as you normally would but at the half way point you marked.
    Here's what should happen if the idea is correct:
    For those skilled in tuning their horns, the slide's half way point should be where it normally rests.
    For others it should help make the sound a little more brilliant and make playing a little easier because according to some sources, they are not having to fight with a horn that resonates at ex:440 and the tuning slide has it at 442.
    Have fun and check it out. Like I said, I discovered this just messing around and have no numbers or theories. If you want to talk numbers, principles, theories, that's okay. Just please, give it a try first and see if it works for you and your horn.
    Thanks guys, thanks rowuk (you can get out of the corner now)
  10. Dr.Mark

    Dr.Mark Mezzo Forte User

    Apr 5, 2011
    Hi Sethoflagos!
    First things first--Happy Easter!
    What is the measuring device that was used to detect the two pitches. The problem I had using a regular Korg type tuner it was hard for the tuner to detect the air sound.
    Never the less, we now know quantitatively that the Bb Wild Thing with Denis Wick 2W has matched resonances at 230Hz. ~20 cent below concert Bb.
    That sounds like a lot but I've got to ask:
    At that setting:
    Did the horn vibrate more in the hands?
    Did it play easier?
    Was the sound brighter?

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