The red of the top of the lip

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by linktrek, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. linktrek

    linktrek New Friend

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    As I am making my comeback, I am choosing the best way to use my top lip. But my top lip seems to be more complex then what I am seeing. I have found that the tissue that is behind the red of the lip is getting involved with my playing. And this tissue that is behind the red of my lip is the
    tissue that I used to use years ago to give me my rich sound that I had developed. But it also has become a stumbling block because it affects my endurance. I am trying to reduce the pressure that I play with but it is this tissue that is behind the red of my lip that looses circulation and deteriorates my endurance. So I am trying to play with only the front part of the red of my lips. This does help my endurance but keeps me from getting the sweet spot that gives me my best sound. Can anyone relate or understand what I am talking about? I do worry about the makeup of my lips. I see many great trumpet players who seem to have thin enough red on their top lip to fit the whole thing into the mpc.Arturo Sandoval does it.If you look the indentation on the top lip of Arturo right after he plays, you will see that he gets all of the red of his lips into the mpc. My trumpet teacher Leon Merian had the same type of lip. Maynard has it. There was an upcoming trumpet player that was about to surpass Maynard in the early 70's who died in a plane crash. He seemed to have the same shaped top lip as Maynard. His name was Chase if you want to check out a photo in Wikipedia.
     
  2. linktrek

    linktrek New Friend

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    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  3. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    This topic will bring on extreme controversy here on TM. I have searched harm posted in medical journals on this and there is none. The stories of famous people having trouble with major lip damage, Freddie Hubbard, Louis Armstrong (Sachmo Syndrome) did not play on the red, so you can do damage even playing on the outer surface. HOWEVER you are right about control, it will not be as good as placing the mouthpiece more external due to the anatomy of the lip. The muscle ring when playing on the red will not be incorporated on the lip and there for, less ability to get fine motor control that is an important edge to have when playing the trumpet. Also, by placing mouthpiece with more pressure totally on top of the muscle, blood circulation will be diminished and fatigue will set in earlier. Here is a histological panel of this anatomical relationship:
    [​IMG]
    Playing on the red will be in the area of the V to S surface. M is muscle. Picture the mouthpiece just on the V to S surface and you will see the muscle will not be in the cup. The typical embouchure will be on the OS and into the V where the muscle is within the cup, allowing fine control as to how the embouchure can adapt and respond to a changing demand on adjusting to support notes and dynamics. Hope this explanation helps.
     
  4. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    Have you tried perhaps going smaller with your diameter? I was having a heck of a time until I went smaller with a sharper bite.

    Tom
     
  5. linktrek

    linktrek New Friend

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    BTW When I was working I had 5 licenses in the pathology laboratory. And for all intents and purposes, this looks to me as a real lips specimen! I am trying to get myself to taget the "V" on that tissue slide. I get great sound and more range if I go past the V. But this costs me endurance. So I will be guilty of creating controvisy, I suppose, having said this.

    As far as the diameter of the cup, I am using a rather small one. I am using the Bobby Shew lead mpc and switch over to a bach size 10 1/2C if my lip swells from using the Shew.

    One other thing I note is that the tissue changes shape within the OM S and V. I find this bothering. If the tissue gets too out of shape then I have to wait atleast 3 to 6 hours to recover my natural shape. So you see, I am searching and experimenting with a lot of different things during my comeback because if anything needs to be changed, then now is the time to do it.

    Am I the only one that believes that people inherit good lips genetically for playing better range amoung other stuff?

    Whoops... my mistake. I am playing a little into the S section with the V actully vibrating inside the cup. It has ruined my tone quality. But I assume that this is only a temperary thing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  6. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Is is a real lip. And the explanation is from physiology, just to show you that we give you more than lip service here on TM.
     
  7. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    Your sig mentions an inexpensive Chinese trumpet. If the intonation of that trumpet is wacky, I could see you getting tired right quick, too... and also comeback, which I wasn't paying enough attention to, before.

    I certainly was surprised to see how little I could do when I first picked up the horn again after 20 years off. You really are starting over, and some will tell you that they were playing above high C after a year but I think that is unusual for most people.

    It might be worth your while to find a better horn sooner rather than later.

    This "Buescher" horn that isn't is a Bach made in Taiwan to good standards and isn't terribly expensive:

    Buescher BU 7 Student BB Trumpet w Case Schilke Mouthpiece | eBay

    This "Windsor" by Buescher is good quality and will be easy to blow:

    Buescher Windsor Trumpet w HSC Vincent Bach Mouthpiece Good Valves Slides | eBay

    There are also plenty of other recommendations to be had. But I think the best thing to do is be patient and something I resisted for too long, a good teacher is helpful too.

    Tom
     
  8. linktrek

    linktrek New Friend

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    Thank you for the advise.I'll make sure I bookmark this thread. I must say at this time I am married. Having said that, I consider myself fortunate to have this $99 trumpet. But I am going to, pardon the pun, play down the perhaps poor quality of the trumpet. I am convinced that it is good enough for Arturo Sandoval to make some beautiful sounds out of. I did have a chance to compare it to a vintage "probably" student trumpet and I had much better range and tone with the Chinese trumpet. It is the first trumpet that I hit the G above high G with. Before this trumpet and mpc, I never played the F above the F on the top of the staff. And if you followed my threads, I put out a couple of recordings of Leon Merian. I had his personal mpc 'Jetone has his name on several mpc's but he never used them' and I had a Selmer Radial matched to the mpc. I never in my life did a rip to a double G before. It was only three weeks ago that I had a very good dream that I hit a full dbl F. I had no idea that this dream would happen for real. And it did. It happened on this $99 Chinese trumpet. This is why I proudly display it on my sig. OPUS Music Co. is a small music company that has photos on it's site of workers putting together a sax. I was amazed that they were putting these together by hand. How can someone make a living spending the time to put a trumpet together all day and get probably $50 for it????? Something funny is going on in China... But that's a whole other topic.
    Anyway, having had some experience with some high priced trumpets, I think I lucked out when I got my hands on this trumpet. It was on eBay. All the feedback was the same as mine... Amazing.. I'm not selling trumpets but if you happen to go by eBay go check out the $99 trumpet that is marked "professional" on the title. Try one out. They would gladly give you your money back. As a matter of fact I got my trumpet free. I kept pushing the seller to get him to say that it was a student model but he wouldn't budge. So I got the trumpet, got the name brand of the trumpet and went to their site. No where was it callled "professional" nor was it marked as a student model trumpet. So I opened up a case with the seller and eBay as the mediator making my case that I wanted documented proof that it was professional. Because the seller sent me a sax the first time and paid for shipping back and forth for that. Plus they would have to pay to have it shipped back again to give me the refund. So they ended up giving me the refund and letting me keep the trumpet!
     
  9. wombat

    wombat New Friend

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    I've wondered about that myself.Louis Maggio,according to Carlton MacBeth,who published Maggio's brass method in '68,had his students place the mouthpiece 2/3 on their upper lip and 1/3 on their lower.Lucien Calliet,in his "Trumpet Yoga" book from 1970,
    had you place the mouthpiece 7/8 upper,1/8 lower.I studied that book when I was in college.The only problem I had was keeping
    my embouchure forward like Maggio taught and staying relaxed like he stated in his book.Come to think of it,John Best once told
    me that he had studied under Maggio back in the '30s and Maggio always insisted he put his mouthpiece higher up on his lip.I'd
    known him from about 1978 until his death in 2000.My two Maggio books are in storage back in Lometa,Texas.I've seen Bob Od-
    neal's but I know nothing about him or his method.
     
  10. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    I was never impressed with Jerome Callet's Trumpet Yoga. I find his suggestion of 7/8ths top lip extreme, and he suggests using a smile embouchure because trumpet playing should make us happy. Tres weird. I've had students who have played in the red, and they didn't have much success playing or playing higher.
     

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