Those forward jaw "Upstream" cats

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Local 357, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    I agree, and there is a lot more about the psychology of playing that I would say factors into how we play than we realize.

    I can only state for a fact that in numerous PM's from local357 to me --- that Local in fact has some very bonafide, well tested, and practical advice that works, and helps in trumpet playing. Maybe that doesn't come across on all of his posts - so whether we are forward jaw, upstream, downstream, or even midstream, or whatever terminology we want to put on our embouchures, I think it is prudent to NOT AUTOMATICALLY CONCLUDE that some guy is full of BS, just because we take issue with his advice on one post.

    That is my opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that is the only opinion that counts for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFL ROFL ROFL


    I also might remind people that Doc Severinsen has said the key to being a great trumpet player is "practice, practice, practice" -- and the late Maynard gave many seminars on trumpet playing ------DID THOSE greats of the trumpet player world inspire people -- YES -- but do we see boatloads of people who can play like "EITHER" of those players -- NO, not boatloads -- but then again, how many aspiring trumpet players --- REALLY SINCERELY TOOK THEIR ADVICE TO HEART AND FOLLOWED IT???? I suspect not many -- or we would have lots of great trumpeters who practice 6 hours a day, and look at their trumpet as an extension of themselves. IMHO
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2012
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Sorry Dave,

    you are right. Back to the Art, or was that science?

    My point about where are the multitude of high note aces is actually based on something else. There has been a lot of attempts to claim fame for having figured out the embouchure thing. Funny thing is that none of those methods work well enough to actually crank out players with more range.

    On the other hand, what does universally and reliably work up to perhaps a G above high C are methods like Earl Irons 27 groups of exercizes or Schlossberg. Our standard, employed symphonic player (of which there are a great deal of in this world) can play this range with relative ease - regardless of the up or down stream. A big difference is in the application of STYLE by these players. I have worked with quite a few that also have "pop" or big band services and when the attitude changes, so does the output.

    I think it may be interesting to analyse how the natural talents do the job. I don't have much hope of applying that to normal people with other physiology and psyche.

    Wet and dry chops are something that I spent time with. The actual lip in the mouthpiece is ALWAYS moist because the air that we exhale is not dry. The part of the lips not IN the cup can be kept dry, giving the player a bit more "grip" on the rim.

    Getting back to a fret analogy, I offer the following:

    File:Harmonic partials on strings.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As we can plainly see, the string functions considerably differently than the lip switch that trumpeters use. Based on lip tension, density, the air pressure from our support and the air cushion in the mouthpiece, the "flapping" frequency is altered. Leaving the fundemental, requires "overblowing" the system in a physics sort of way. Each additional partial requires additional effort to force the trumpet from a natural one wavelength in the horn to the multiple wavelengths demonstrated by the partial series.

    Here are some additional links that probably do a better job than I do of explaining why things work.

    The Function of the Player's Lips
    The Cooperation Needed for Musical Results
    How Instruments Work - In Depth
    http://scholarlyrepository.miami.ed...w#search="overblowing partial series trumpet"
    How Brass Instruments Work
     
  3. flacoman

    flacoman Pianissimo User

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    Well everyone , I did a little diagnosis and discovered about 4mm of overbite . By moving my lower jaw up and getting my teeth more in line ,I found that I needed a lot less air and a lot less force to thin my lips down for higher pitches. I can now finally play the arpeggio above the staff :D While this is trivial to many of the other players ,it's a step I could never accomplished 35 years ago. Thanks to all for getting me over that hump !
     
  4. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    You don't "Thin" your lips down to play high. Not sure what you mean here. And yes the upper register doesn't require as much volume of air as the middle and lower registers. If you like I could go into the science behind that fact. Let me know. Hint, it has to do with the distance betwen the peaks of the pressure wave of the vibrating pitch.

    But I'm concerned about this lip thinning you do. what notes/range are you talking about?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
  5. flacoman

    flacoman Pianissimo User

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    Bob, when I say thinning ,I'm referring to adding tension to the lips to make them buzz higher in pitch. It's almost a smiling motion with the corners of my cheeks. Compression of air is definitely working in my favor now that my lower lip has some support .
    The notes in question are from E to high C at present .
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Success is measured in months and years, not a good day with a couple of extra notes.

    I think that we all agree that a functioning embouchure is a combination of many things. Tongue position, breath control, chops which consist of many muscles working together.

    Now change one of those things in a major way - how long does it take for the rest to catch up - months? Instant better is not realistic. Humans are creatures of habits and even somethign as simple as where the tongue articulates changes when you move our jaw.

    Flacoman, while I am happy that you got a couple of notes, I think that it is not safe to say yet where that came from and if it will remain.
     
  7. flacoman

    flacoman Pianissimo User

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    Well , when you finally correct a problem,and it clicks in terms of results AND the why of it, I get kinda happy. The AHA! moment in anything is one of the things that get me out of bed in the morning :-)
     
  8. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    If the so-called "smile" system is helpful to anyone it probably is that group of forward jaw trumpet players. At least they are inclined to do it. It wasn't however the analogy I was describing. I may have to shift to another comparison as that one is always misinterpreted.

    Dr. Reinhardt was one of the first to notice it. These type often adding a twist and/or a windup with a smile. William Costello even promoted it strange as it sounds. Forward jaw players inclined to pull their lips apart a bit. Reason they could get away with it?

    In those trumpet players that the forward jaw setting works for less lip flesh is needed to "steer" the vibration into the upper register. Extra flesh being sort of a handicap. So they thin their chops out and viola: Triple C's.

    The concept will be anathema to receded jaw players.
     
  9. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    I wasn't going to do this but I can not let Rowuk get away with it. Pardon the diss here but I've found that one can not let the personal attacks go completely unanswered. He's angry because I indirectly pointed out the futility of his discussion of the "standing wave" idea. That while a standing wave (probably) occurs within a brass instrument it is just useless trivia. Like expecting that having the knowledge of the speed of sound could help someone learn the instrument.

    Rowuk is sitting there stuck like a bee on a specimen tray and quite unhappy that I pointed it out. Especially bringing up the subject here again. I draw no joy in pointing it out. But I've got you old boy! Any deflection, obfuscation and blame changing won't change your inaccurate promotion of inapplicable physics.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  10. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Sometimes it is the "Aha! moment" that puts me to sleep at night. Ahem!
     

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