Those forward jaw "Upstream" cats

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Local 357, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

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    Seems to me personal attacks are flying back and forth really. I am one who believes that Rowuk would benefit from a "longer fuse" especially with those who disagree with him. However, I fail to see how the above comment answers the question quoted in the comment in any way. Where indeed are all the players benefitting from Local's system or whatever he wants to call it?

    I would add that, like Dave, I am not swayed by those who call others' work "old wives tales" then advertise their own view as better without providing better substantiation.

    However, unlike Dave, I believe that it does matter if one has a coherent system that can be explained in such a way that it allows it to be transmitted to most students with consistent results. That would indeed prove the validity of the system and its formulation to the extent that it makes the results reproducible by many. That actually would be quite an achievement.
     
  2. EdMann

    EdMann Mezzo Forte User

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    After years of study, it's clearer and clearer to me that parlor tricks to create a result is like putting springs in your Nikes so you can dunk a basketball. Yes, yes, a forward jaw will likely give you something you may not have had earlier, but it will be in exchange for something else: a stable embouchure, your sound, an unpredictable outcome each time you put that thing on your chops... each physical change hands you a trade off. It's like making an embouchure change: you're going to slide for a while until you can get on stable ground. Hey, try using a wet chopset when you've been dry for years. You have to get used to stuff, and practice is the only way.

    I'd hate for some student to read this thread and think that a forward jaw will solve their problems. My pal Dave, who I play with regularly, clearly has a receded jaw, and his range, power and stability are monumental. Then there are dogmatists like Carl Saunders, one of the greats, who insists that even teeth are the only way to play. What crap. Why do u think folks who use Gordon and say, Adam both have spectacular results? Because each has a clearly thought-out system that must be practiced.

    ed
     
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  3. flacoman

    flacoman Pianissimo User

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    It's not so much a gimmick as trying to improve my technique.
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Local,
    you haven't pointed out anything except your personal opinion. That is fine. When you have a proof of concept, then you can write a book and others that benefit from it can cash in. Pops McLaughlin makes a living peddling high notes - I haven't seen him with a trombone however.

    I have been teaching for a very long time and have conventional methods for success. Nothing new or revolutionary. I've seen enough high note marketeers come and go. I simply don't believe it anymore. I think that the true lead players need much more than a physical suitability. I am not even sure that the groove that a lead trumpet player needs can be learned. Nurtured perhaps.

    If a really killer system were available, we would have a lot more high note aces. Claims of such seem to have a half life just like many of the shallow mouthpieces sold. Arban, Clarke, Irons and Schlossberg have been the tried and true proven methods for getting players up to their potential and giving them a lot to be happy about. The explanations are part of a big picture that helps players keep themselves out of trouble. Not failsafe, as things can be pulled out of context or too superficially read.

    Understanding the standing wave is one of the best ways to get the player into letting the horn do the work. They stop treating the trumpet like a megaphone.
    The "science" of breathing I call the Circle of Breath and plenty of research has gone into it.
    Working with yoga, dance trainers and martial arts experts offers scientific insight into the function of the body and getting the pieces to work together.
    The geometry of the embouchure has also been a very big focus for me to help young players with braces.
    The math behind tuning has helped me and a lot of colleagues improve our playing when the well tempered scale is NOT our goal. It really does help the preparation before even playing a note.
    Chemistry is also very helpful when keeping your horn shiny.
    As I mentioned before, awareness of the atmosphere helped me with a concert series in South America at a very high altitude.

    I encourage curiosity and the application of knowledge gained out of the box. There are so many "related" disciplines that help us get better in a more efficient way. A more than basic understanding can help us avoid many pitfalls or snake oil vendors. Requiring an active interest in a bigger picture may be deemed by some to be a waste of time. My experience with hundreds of students is the opposite. We learn a heck of a lot from one another and improve with our grasp of an ever increasing pool of info.


    Phil is right about the fuse. It has much less to do with disagreement, rather things that too many have fallen flat on their face with. In 35+ years of teaching, I may have had one or two students that had the natural talent to succeed with "just blow". Not a very high percentage.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  5. kehaulani

    kehaulani Fortissimo User

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    Hawaian homey
    rowuk. English is obviously your native language. We might've crossed paths in the deep dark past. Without meaning to give away your anonymity away, would this combination of words mean anything to you: Breeden. Hans Last?
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    If you are talking about Harold Leon and James, yes they mean something. I saw HLB with Ella in the late 70s(Joe Pass with Ella too), about the same time that I got to know Hans in Stuttgart, Germany.
     
  7. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    just - food for thought to those "unnamed participants in this thread" who like to DEFINE what makes a good teacher -- either physics, or just blow -----here is a nice little part of Albert Einstein's bio --- and HE thought he would make a great teacher --- many of his TEACHERS disagreed with THAT assessment!!!!!!!!!!


    "Einstein decided to study math and physics so he could become a teacher. Einstein thought he would be good at this because he could think mathematically and abstractly while lacking imagination and practicality. In 1896 he renounced his German citizenship. He was not a citizen of any country until 1901 when he became a citizen of Switzerland. In 1900 he graduated as a teacher of math and physics. His teachers did not think very highly of him though so he had difficulty being recommended for a job at a university"

    Albert Einstein
     
  8. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

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    As I remember, he did not exactly graduate as a teacher, he graduated from the swiss Polytechnic institute with a certificate of study completion, which would have enabled him to teach, had he received a good recommendation. Since he cared little for his teachers, hierarchy, and discipline in general, or study habits, the recommendation did not happen and he ended up instead working as a clerk at the Swiss patent office. While there he discovered many interesting aspects of engineering that widened his horizon and in the process he patented a unique and very clever design for a refrigerator. In the little free time he had, he managed to write and publish his 1905 paper on special relativity, and the photoelectric paper as well, if I remember. I'm not sure if the Brownian Motion paper was written while still at the patent office. These are all considered epitomes of seminal physics papers. The comments on his abilities as a patent clerk from his superiors are even funnier than the ones from his teachers at the Swiss Polytechnic. Max Planck, however, quickly formed a different opinion of him as he reviewed his papers.
     
  9. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    nonetheless, our own perspective of ourselves may not be an indication of what we are good at --- then again --- another's perspective of us (in this case a group of professors who didn't mesh with Einstein) might also NOT indicate what we are good at. The whole point being, that each of us have our own niche -----AND TO AUTOMATICALLY conclude that someone IS, OR IS NOT a good teacher ---based totally on an anonymous electronic thread, and postings on that thread ---is just utterly ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMHO
     
  10. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    OK lets straighten out this smile embouchure concept. The term was coined, as far as I know, about 100 years ago by players who looked at the way the embouchure looked outside the mpc. They couldn't see under the mpc and they didn't try to analyse what was going on there. It looked like the players were smiling. Actually they were not. It just looked that way because the corners of the lips in some players look like they were pulled back slightly. An example of this is Dokshizer. When he plays he looks like he is smiling, but he is not. Why, because when we smile with our lips closed we stretch them back. There is no contraction in the center of the lips. If one were to truly play this way they would have a very thin tone and the lips would bruise easily from the slightest mpc pressure.

    What is really going on is that while the corners of some players may look like they are smiling what is happening under mpc rim is some contraction of the lips. A slight pucker if you will. Now some players look different when they play. Some players look like their corners turn down. Some players corners look tucked in. When I need to talk to a student about using their corners, I tell them to make a dimple in their cheek. this gets them to feel the corners and to use them in the right way. The way I teach I rarely have to talk about the embouchure. I perfer to have my students play things that develop their embouchure and all their playing skills naturally.

    So in closing the phrase "smile embouchure was coined by players who really didn't understand how the embouchure really works. Anybody who is succesful on the horn uses a combination of tucked corners and a slight pucker to resist mpc pressure.
     

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