Throwing this out there for the designers out there

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Cornyandy, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    Okay so my preference for starting young students on cornets is well doccumented. I have two students who have been with another teacher before me and both of them have two or three bad habits which I believe is linked to playing a trumpet before they are actually strong enough to hold on properly. They have ended up with a trumpet pointed at the floor, and and embouchures which almost tucks the bottom lip inside the top one. (actually they have been to the same peri teacher. One of them after SIX months couldn't play Oh when the saints in C, took me two lessons to get her going on it but that is not the point)

    I wonder if and this would rely on someone working with the Chinese (shock horror) is a cheap trumpet could be made with the valve block well back in more of a compact cornet position with the balance allowing children to more easily hold the horn roughly horrizontal while the instrument keeps the look, sound and feel of a trumpet.

    Trust me I have seen a lot of horrors recently from horns pointed at the floor to kids bending back so far to keep the instrument up that they must be hurting their back long term to horns pointed at the floor with the head straight and the lips compensating

    I would welcome any thoughts on this.

    A
     
  2. gzent

    gzent Fortissimo User

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    Sounds like Carol Brass pocket trumpets are the answer.
     
  3. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    Perhaps they are, but they still look like conets or baby trumpets.
     
  4. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    I played a nice heavy Buescher 400 from that age as a child small for my age and I had no trouble holding it up. Plenty of other kids hold up trumpets and trombones.

    Therefore, I don't think they need anything other than some proper teaching. If they refuse to hold the horn up and they're otherwise healthy... tell the parents that it's not for them, see this nice clarinet?

    And, there's nothing wrong with the top lip overlapping some, either.

    Tom
     
  5. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    While it would be better for short arms, I would think that moving the valve block back would make the trumpet a lot more bell-heavy and just as difficult to hold up. Something more like the old Conn 15A might be a better trumpet/cornet compromise.
     
  6. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    Tom whether you like it or not I see children struggling to hold the horn up to a decent position. Perhaps we are forgetting that we were a little physically stronger than many of our "indoor raised" children when we were younger. The fact remains that I know what I am seeing whether down to poor teaching or physical difficulties. I do agree a bias to a lip is no particulr probelm but the exaggeration of this due to poor horn placement and angles is not a good thing.

    I see what you mean Dale but I still wonder if the basic wrap of a trumpet can be changed to make it easier for small people without resorting to "I had to hold a proper trumpet so you can do it" (see above) as an argument. Okay the Conn 15A looks to me to be a sort of halfway house but, how many of those are around and who is making something similar.
     
  7. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Andy,

    I started on full-size trumpet when I was 8 and I was quite small for my age. It was not an issue.

    I think this was largely down to my tutor (Graham Walker) insisting on proper posture from day one. And of course in those days, we'd get a good clip round the lugs off our parents for slouching anyway. Chest out - back straight - you know the drill! Also we seemed to be a lot more physically active then than today's playstation generation - so maybe stronger as a result.

    It's unfashionable these days to inculcate disciplined ways on the young (I know from personal experience that this sometimes led to abuse), but I'm afraid the opposite extreme of "the child knows best" is simply the path to mediocrity.
     
  8. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    Well, there are a lot of 15A's around here in the U.S., and can usually be had fairly cheaply. Across the pond, that's probably not the case. No one makes anything like it today, but they are fairly lightweight, well balanced, play well, and sound like a trumpet. I gave mine to one of my nephews when he started out playing and he loved it.
     
  9. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    Andy, I have absolutely no words. I cannot conceive of any reason other than malnourishment, physical malady, or stubbornness that a child cannot hold a trumpet up. You do start them about the same age we do, about 8 to 10 years old?

    Good luck on your quest for a solution.

    Tom
     
  10. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    I was the same proper posture was one of the first things I learnt, what I cannot understand is why whenever I bring this subject up (which I have done in various ways in the past) I get the same sort of response. I'm not criticising anyone in particuar here but I read the same things, basically that's how it was in my day, get on with it.

    Okay it was and we all had our learning crosses to bear but if we go back far enough we might as well play natural trumpets (in short Luddism). Valves were a new fangled thing once, as were mobile slides, triggers and water keys. The vast majority of children in this country start lessons at school with an overloaded teacher who has 20 to 30 minutes a week to work with 3 to 6 students I know I can be critical of "school" brass teaching but much of that is frustration with the system.

    I just wonder if life can be made easier for all with a bit of juggling with tubing. Is that idea so wrong that most of our community seem to think I am asking for something sacrelegiuos (should I wear a bell pipe and shout unclean unclean for daring to think laterally about trumpet design) I'm not saying it will, could, should, work but I would like to understand why not. Rather than just get told a trumpet is a trumpet get on with it. Obviously the counter argument is that the trumpet has basically not changed for years so why reinvent it but my minds eye can see something easier for children to work with but I do not have the skill to even think about producing it.
     

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