tongue and lips

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by ohmss, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. ohmss

    ohmss New Friend

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    Feb 14, 2008
    I took up trumpet at a later age (40) and have been playing for just over a year.
    I notice that my tongue touches my lips slightly, between notes.
    It makes things a little 'sloppy' when playing quickly.
    Should the tongue touch the lips?

    Thank You,
    Bruce
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    In Germany we teach this. It is an excellent way to get a very positive attack (especially when playing extremely softly!) or a very secco staccato. I have been practicing this for over 30 years and have found no down side, so I say it is an addition to all of the other articulative possibilities not to worry about!
     
  3. Xelex

    Xelex New Friend

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    Nov 19, 2008
    That's actually a pretty controversial issue, if it is what I think it is you're saying.

    Callet advocates tonguing between the teeth in his system; several other musicians believe tonguing between the teeth is a very, very bad habit.

    If its a fast passage, try using different syllables to tongue it in my opinion, for example a legato note would be du, staccato would be tee. When I say tee, my tongue touches the roof of my mouth.

    It all comes down to what works for you individually, really.
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Xelex,
    many of the things that have been taught have a base no longer known or understood. I would be interested in the REASONING behind this myth. There certainly is no mechanical or geometrical reason. There is a world of articulation out there that should be taught BEFORE considering what to forbid.

    Almost any consonant can be used when playing and the following I have seen in various methods, some dating back to the 1600s: T, D, L, R, N, G, K, Th.

    My staccato is generally a toot, kook or look, but then again I want everything from darts to flamethrowers to big dark clouds and thunderstorms to bright sunny days.
     
  5. ohmss

    ohmss New Friend

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    Feb 14, 2008
    Thank You for all the advice. I thought this was somewhat controversial, and I guess it is. Warren Vache says it's definitly a no-no as it stops the lips from vibrating.
    But, it does make for a clean attack. Maybe I just have to work at keeping it that way, through faster passages.
    I will also try different syllables.
    Thanks again.
     
  6. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    sing the word tooo or taaa. feel what your tongue does. this is how it should move when you tongue. I believe that tonguing between the lips "slaps" the lips into motion. Not good for sensitivity. try doing breathe attacks then add the tongue. Remember the tongur does not start the sound, the air starts the sound. the tongue realises the air for a clear attack. When you do repeated tonguing remember the tongue does not stop the air between notes it only interupts the air. cut on your kitchen faucet, take your forefinger and move it through the steam of water. does it stop the water? No! Does it interrupt the water? yes! this is what your tongue does with the air stream.
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Bob,
    a real staccato does stop the sound and air. There are a ton of other articulations that also separate the tones. That has been one of the major griefs with American players in Europe - obsessed with sound, palette of articulation far reduced compared the counterparts here.
    If one examines Clarke, Arban, St. Jacome and many other accepted methods, we find plenty of articulations that do stop the airflow.

    Why shouldn't we have it all? What have we got to lose having a bigger palette than Warren Vache? What about all of the decent European teachers that disagree?

    Remember, articulation is what makes a language intelligible. Very articulate people are interesting to listen to. Listen to Sergei Nakariakov. His palette is MUCH bigger than most. He is not afraid to play short notes short! Listen to Rafael Mendéz Hora Staccato and compare that to Maurice Andrés Hora Legato (available on YouTube). No doubt in my mind what the composer wanted.
     
  8. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    Rowuk, I do agree that we should learn all the different types of articulation so that we can express the music. to carry my point further. It's easy to learn to tongue stop a note. many young students do it but for them it's a bad habit because it keeps them from learning air flow. When I'm teaching a beginning student I always teach them how to stop the air by stopping the air. The same way we stop the sound when we sing. Once they have learned this the other ways to stop the sound don't even have to be taught. They will be able to do them right away. Since Ohmss stated he was a beginner ( having played just a year) I would counsel him to learn the art of tonguing and stopping the air as I described. These require the most practice to learn because they are the most difficult. By difficult I mean it usually takes me one session to teach them to a student. once these are learn the rest of the articulations will come more easily.
     
  9. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    If the lips vibrate why would you stop them from doing so by having the tongue touch them? If the tongue is touching lips it must stop the sound.
     
  10. Xelex

    Xelex New Friend

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    Nov 19, 2008
    Actually, when I free buzz I let my tongue touch my lips... It promotes a stronger buzz in my experience, then I pulli t away and try to buzz without it there...
    I find using the tongue between the teeth can result in an airy, weaker sound, and sloppy tonguing... But that's just me - the method works for a few people, namely a few screamers, but they tend to have issues with control.
    Those of us who can pull it off with just pivot/corners/tongue angle [as in not between the teeth]/air tend to have more control/consistency... It just takes longer.
     

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