Tongue issue

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by DISHOA, Mar 31, 2010.

  1. DISHOA

    DISHOA New Friend

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    Mar 31, 2010
    Hi, I've been playing the trumpet for about twelve years and my problem si fast single tonguing. I asked my teacher and he said it's because I don't touch by tip of tongue behind the front teeth but between them and slightly touching a tip of my upper lip. It breaks my the tone and I can't tongue fast.

    I've tried, as my teacher told me, buzzing on my lips without the trumpet and I can articulate 'Tu' with my tounge behind the teeth but once I put the mouthpiece on my lips I can't get the tongue there, only between my teeth. I don't know what to do to get rid of this habit.
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    DISHOA,
    there are many roads that lead to successful tonguing and some involve tonguing directly on the lips - even although in America there seems to be the notion that this is bad. In Germany, it is a common technique and believe me the players here do not tongue more slowly.

    The key to fast is slow. You need to grab your Arban book and just start working on clean attacks, then speed them up gradually. Do not tongue for extended periods at your upper limit. The basic coordination is NEVER available there and you reinforce irregular. My students start with 16ths at MM=80 first and when they are "perfect" then we jump to MM=100, then MM=120. I do not believe in sneaking up in small increments. We define the next step and work towards it. If it doesn't work, then we back up to the previous step.

    That all being said, fast tonguing means getting your breathing down. Wimpy breathing means wimpy articulation.
     
  3. RichJ

    RichJ Piano User

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    I used to be slow at single tonguing. What worked best for me was practicing a more legato/brush tongue approach at very low dynamic levels and lots of practice using Arbans. For me, practicing at max speed and then gradually going faster with a metronome worked the best. In retrospect, what slowed me down was overly large movements of my tongue. I also used to tongue the way you describe and still might for some music (eg, Firebird), but for speed in etudes, characteristic studies, cornet solos, etc., a less aggressive approach is easier and will also allow you to play with a warmer sound.
     
  4. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    What Rowuk says about grabbing the Arban Book and his words on various ways to tongue, method of speeding up and the effects of whimpy a breath are spot on. The two things I would add to this are:
    1)Record yourself and listen intently. When you record and listen, you can hear if the articulation is blatty, uneven, course, too light, or contains inconsistencies.
    Except for an audience, the recorder is the great leveler. Its a humbling experience to listen to yourself but you have to remember, what you hear when you play and what the audience hears can be quite different. Listen to yourself and make sure your notes are not short detached and have a sharp, ragged edge to them. Make each note light and round as a bubble.
    2)"This is a biggie"" Listen to trumpet players who know what they are doing:
    HÃ¥kan Hardenberger, Alison Balsom, Tine Thing are a few to start with. Listen how it sounds when they articulate. Copy the person you like the best and do the best you can to sound like them. You have to imitate before you innovate. Listen to Rowuk and learn by listening.
    Good Luck
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  5. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    Hi DISHOA

    I would echo Rowuk, I do the same thing, have all my life, and although some say it is limiting I would say that I could not have played the last post well if my tongueing was that bad. I went through a little crisis of confidence with my tongueing (which I believe had more to do with me putting too great a demand on myself as a come back player) but with Rowuk's advice I stopped worrying and got on with it Keep the airflow going and keep the tongue light and you won't disturb your embouchure much. I'm working on playing Arban's first characteristic at the moment and the speed isn't a problem (particularly on my cornet) I would add the caveat that I would probably not teach a new player to do this but I'm not a teacher Rowuk is.

    Keep at it

    Cheers

    Andrew
     
  6. DISHOA

    DISHOA New Friend

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    Mar 31, 2010
    Thanks all, so it's not problem as I thought. I've discussed it with two teachers and both said it's bad habit and I can't reach fast staccato with it, so I was worried. I try, as rowuk said, play slowly first.

    I've got one more questinon:
    If my tongue touches tip of the upper lip it corrupt the tone, and on upper level it sometimes jump up or down. It's all about practice I guess, hm?
     
  7. Cornyandy

    Cornyandy Fortissimo User

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    Hi

    can you clarify, do you mean your tongue touching your top lip as part of the tongueing action or actually during the note as it sounds.

    Cheers

    Andrew
     
  8. oldenick

    oldenick Pianissimo User

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    .
     
  9. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    DISHOA sez:
    If my tongue touches tip of the upper lip it corrupt the tone, and on upper level it sometimes jump up or down.
    ---------------This sounds like you're using pressure to play notes.
    You might want to read Mouthpiece Pressure Assessment and record yourself and listen how you sound.
    Also, the tongue simply interupts the airstream, right?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  10. chet fan

    chet fan Piano User

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    I do not get this. You said several times that you are not proffessional musucuan, that you do other things to make living. Yet you have students. I find it odd that amateur musician teaches.

    Please do not take any offence form this, it was not ment. It is not that I am questioning your teaching ability, on contrary I think you have been dishonest ot us regarding your proffesion. I think you are profesional musician, but for some reason you would like us to think otherwise. Its ok, I just cannot figure out the reason.
     

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