Tongue placement

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by hdswriter, Jan 9, 2008.

  1. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

    957
    5
    May 29, 2007
    come on patric. first sit ups improve high range and now this :roll:


     
  2. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    60
    12,459
    7,035
    Mar 23, 2006
    Parts Unknown
    TCE--Ten Characteristic Etudes?













    (tee-hee)
     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,611
    7,955
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    Patric doesn't know this. There is just a bunch of bad information on the internet that people without teachers can't put into proper perspective.

    There is "conflicting" information about where the tongue should be because there are many paths to success. If we break the process down into parts:

    1) we can change pitch solely by embouchure strength
    2) we can change pitch solely by air pressure (this is accomplished by arching the tongue and decreasing the size of the oral cavity-"Taaa-eee-aaa")
    3) we can change pitch solely by mouthpiece pressure (did I actually type this, sorry, please ignore-this is not good!)

    For many of us, the most intelligent way to play is a combination of the first two. Reality says most of us use all three. There are methods that push us solely in the direction of 1 or 2 that also provide believable proof.

    The tongue position can be retaught and the results are mixed as this is essentially an embouchure change.

    If you want to do something that you presently can't (sextuplets at quarter=208 or double tonguing quadruple C for instance), changing tonguing may be the solution that PREVENTS you from getting there! I generally get the best results by sneaking up on the the problem, practicing slowly and accurately and then increasing speed by small steps.

    An attack can be with the tip of the tongue (even between the teeth for a real staccato), When the tip is placed on the bottom teeth, the point of attack is about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch further back. I use both methods depending on the effect I am trying to create (the tip of the tongue for a bigger sound (symphony), the anchor when I play picc or big band lead).
     
  4. oj

    oj Pianissimo User

    93
    2
    Sep 9, 2005
    Norway
    I checked Clarke's texts a bit more.

    In his book "Elementary Studies", he also has something to say about the tongue:
    More here: Herbert L. Clarke: Elementary Studies

    Ole
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,611
    7,955
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    Hi Ole,
    I am familiar with the passage. My trumpet mentor Heinz Zickler, here in Germany, has convinced me otherwise however.

    A real secco staccato or a note that has to appear like it is coming from nowhere but has to come in from nowhere on time, can be very easily started when tonguing against the lips very lightly - even when under pressure. I do not want to start an ideological war here but can vouch that the technique works very well where it musically fits and say that I advocate a more decisive (this does not mean accent) tonguing than many.
    As with the argument for colors, additional techniques are useful and expand ones possibilities, even if many others make due with less.
     
  6. brem

    brem Mezzo Forte User

    831
    5
    Sep 13, 2007
    Quebec City, QC, Canada
    Also, beware of taking a man's point of view as canon Bible like dogma. :)
     
  7. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

    1,951
    1
    Oct 25, 2007
    California
    I say often because he must have played with it enough to be able to use it whenever he wanted.

    Here is some text from the Trumpet Secrets book if all of you doubt that there actually IS a TCE, or tongue controlled embochure. set.

    "Please remember this note is a G, made on the cornet without the use of pistons. The proper way to obtain a note is to imagine you have something on your tongue, say for instance, a hair. You may try time after time to remove it, but only with your tongue. Dear pupil, you must always have that hair on your tongue until you can munipulate the notes properly. In addition to using the tongue, you must tighten your lips to try to get rid of that troublesome hair. When I make a mark, thos (accent) you must try to get that wretched hair off your tounge. It will trouble you for some time, but don't forget that when you make the note properly, you must keep the lips pressed against the mouth-piece, and hold on to it as long as possible. Count for very slowly for each...." J. Levy- whom I think was taught by Clark.

    This is an actual technique that is used by many baroque players. Just check out Bahb Civiletti's website to hear him playing using this embochure.


    And Rowuk, I didn't limit the pitch changing ability to only with the tounge, but it is one of the most common to use for bends or for when slurring notes. Of course for slurring partials you would use a combination of tightening/softening the chops and tounge. I also never said i found ANY of my info online from random people.
     
  8. oj

    oj Pianissimo User

    93
    2
    Sep 9, 2005
    Norway
    Patric, Jules Levy was born in London, England, on April 24, 1838. (more here: Jules Levy)

    Herbert L. Clarke was born in Woburn, Massachusetts on September 12, 1867.

    So, you see, Clarke (30 years younger) could not have been the teacher of Levy ;-)

    Rowuk, my point was to show that Clarke was very flexible. What he used himself was one thing. What he recommended in his beginner book was something else (more safe).

    He also was self-taught. His hard work to become a great player is well documented in his autobiography. A must read, IMO.
    You can read it online here: How I became a cornetist

    A funny thing was that Claude Gordon, who studied with Clarke for ten years, always talked against buzzing. Clarke do not recommend it either, but in his latest years when he was having trouble with his teeth, he started doing both lip- and mpc-buzzing (he and Fred Elias discusses this in letters).

    Btw, I use several tonguing types, TCE, TOTL (from BE - Tongue On Top Lip), etc. For flutter, I even have to move my tongue back in the mouth.

    Ole

    P.S. Zickler is a very good trumpeter, I have some CDs with him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2008
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,611
    7,955
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany

    FLAME

    Patric, how much nat do you play? Point made? Is Bahb typical for all nat players? How do you claim "many"? How much do you really know about the nat?

    I can appreciate your having an opinion, and also your right to post anything you want at any time on an open forum. Why can't you post about things that you really know something about instead of hearsay and outright wrong things?

    You read something somewhere, take it out of context and repost it here.

    You did not say that your information is random, I did, and your Levy comment (which would have easily been googlable) and nat playing technique guesstimate proves it again. I do play nat professionally and do not need TCE to get the job done. A trill that is played taa-ee-aa-ee-aa-ee-aah does not make the whole embouchure tongue controlled as in TCE. You will one day be able to figure that out when you start playing the nat and have gotten some experience. This does not mean that TCE doesn't work, it just means that YOU have no statistics and made an assumption again based on air. TCE for slurs, but for partials a combination of chops and tongue - again a Patric guesstimate. Probably tough to google, but if one practices the REAL answer quickly becomes very apparent.

    FLAME OFF

    My advice to you Patric is to ASK questions instead of giving bad advice. Everybody benefits!
     

Share This Page