Tonguing and tongue level - tip at back of lower teeth

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by jdostie, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. jdostie

    jdostie Piano User

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    Feb 20, 2008
    I just received a copy of "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing," and read through the text. We'll leave aside the difference in breathing that I was previously taught and go to tonguing. I've read before about having the tongue at the back of the bottom teeth, but never (at least not that I noticed) recognized anyone saying that tonguing should be done with the back of the bottom teeth.

    If I am reading this correctly, this would have the arch of the tongue strike the roof of the mouth (similar to K tonguing, but farther forward on the tongue), rather than using the tip of the tongue and in tu or da where the tip of the tongue is behind the top teeth which is natural for those syllables... It refers the reader to "Tongue Level Exercises" which I don't have, and I just had a lesson today so I won't see my teacher for about two weeks. But, this would be a dramatically different approach to tonguing than I have ever used.

    Am I misreading this application? I don't even want to try this until I know that I've read it correctly. On the one hand, that kind of tongue position might be more conducive to higher register work? On the other hand, would not articulation be more difficult.

    It seems to be too fundamental for me to have had a faulty understanding all this time, and also too drastic a difference at the same time!?!

    Edit ___________
    So, maybe I do this sometimes and have not realized it, I am sitting here making syllables, and I can do this, but I also use the tip of the tongue . . . I guess I'll have to run through some exercises. In the mean time, if someone has further thoughts on this subject, I'm all ears, er eyes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2008
  2. jdostie

    jdostie Piano User

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    Feb 20, 2008
    Anchor Tonguing

    I just found this at HICKMAN CLINIC "While anchor tonguing was or is used by many top players including Herbert Clarke, Armando Ghitalla, Charles Schlueter, Claude Gordon, Timothy Morrison, and Raymond Mase, it is a less common method of articulation." Which I found after seeing "anchor tonguing" referred to on bbtrumpet.com.

    So, I guess what I am referring to is Anchor tonguing. And, since I am reading that it is a "less common method of articulation," maybe I'd better hold that question for my teacher. Ya think?

     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    It is not safe to assume that anchor tonguing is less common. It is a viable alternative and used by many. Like everyhing else trumpet, it is not for everybody, and for sure not worth an argument.
     
  4. jdostie

    jdostie Piano User

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    Feb 20, 2008
    Ok, thanks, so by "not for everybody," are you suggesting that it's something to be tried, something to only try if my teacher says, "have you tried this?" Is it something you have you students try?

    There are so many things to work on, tonguing being among them. I don't want to work on something that is not important to development, but then again, why practice one way only to have to "start over" at some point in the future. This is why I am spending some additional time trying to make sure I am going about things properly - even things that I used to take for granted.

    Thanks
     
  5. Jurandr

    Jurandr Pianissimo User

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    Sitting on top of my section in band, I have a lot of chances to talk to my peers on different trumpet things. As it turns out, everybody has their own way of tonguing. Do what's best for you. Trying another person's tongue method is fine, but if it doesn't work, you probably need to improvise it just a little. Everybody has different mouths, after all!
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    JD,
    although there are variations in tonguing technique, the only way to figure out what is next is to solidify what you have.

    After the first year of trumpet lessons EVERY PLAYER should have a solid daily routine. With that, you can easily figure out where the limits are. Without that, you are just taking a shot in the dark.

    If you have a solid routine, you can answer the question of necessity for change without us. If you do not, we can't help you either.

    Regardless of the specific technique, Clarke is universally accepted as great double and triple tongue exercizes. GET THAT DAILY ROUTINE DOWN. There is no substitute!
     
  7. jdostie

    jdostie Piano User

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    Feb 20, 2008
    Rowuk: Thanks for the reply. I have been working through Arban's double and triple tonguing exercises on a daily basis. Yesterday I went through the material an additional time using the "dorsal" tonguing technique as I understand it.

    It's different, but not all that different . . . something I find I can do, though the articulation is not as good. So given that experimentation and what you've said here, I guess I'll develop that if/when I need it. It's just that the way it was mentioned in the Gordon book it sounded like "this is how you tongue."

    My next purchase is Clarke's technical studies, so that will be added soon as well.

    Thanks again.
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    JD,
    that is great news. As I said, IF there is a SOLID daily routine in place, so much falls into place all by itself.
    I have 2 students 9 and 10 that I have been giving lessons to for a year. They have a DAILY 20 minute routine and enough for an additional 30 minutes practice time. They can already double tongue cleanly and rhythmically at quarter=152 (without me having looked at where their tongues are)! They also have good range and sound! We will play an arrangement of Buglers Holiday (transposed down) at the end of May, I will be playing 3rd trumpet...........................
    What I want to say is, tonguing is actually quite simple. The hard part is teaching the old dog new tricks. If you weren't double tonguing from the very beginning, learning it later takes a lot more discipline and brain power. My girls will start triple tonguing in September when their reading skills have improved.
    Teachers start your beginners on the second or third lesson! More advanced students may need another approach as their brains are in the way...........
     

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