Tounge Arch Teacher

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by john7401, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. john7401

    john7401 Pianissimo User

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    The more I look into information to better understand how a tounge arch works when playing, the more I believe I am not using it. Right now I know I have other problems and flaws to beat out of my playing, but this is something that I should be doing when playing all of the time anyway which is why I'm asking.

    My private instructor says he hasn't heard of this before so is my best option to wait untill I can find a teacher that knows about this and can teach it to me or is it something I should try to implement on my own?

    Right now this is sounding stupid to me and I'm thinking the obvious answer would be to wait untill I found a good teacher to learn this from, but I also feel that I'm past the point to where I should be doing this in my playing already.

    Lastly if I do find someone that can teach me this would it be ok to take on another teach just for this technique if my instructor now cannot teach me it?
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't agree with "pops". There is a method called TCE that Nick Drozdoff uses. I teach good old lip slurs and my students don't worry about it.

    Whether or not 2 different teachers at the same time are good depends on those two personalities. I took master classes while still receiving regular instructioin. There was plenty of potential confusion and my teacher took the time to analyse what I thought that I had heard. He often said "that doesn't work for me". Messing around with tongue position was of those things. The Arban Tooh and Teeh were all that we ever worked on. I never had any issues with range needed for the pieces that I was playing, but then again back then we didn't need a double C in the 4th grade. That seems to have changed........... ;-)

    So realise that arch is not a universal solution and that the recordings of Pops are "underwhelming". Realize also that you are not in a position to determine what is missing so do not assume that arch is part of that. It is fine to research something that you read about but for that to become "your" issue is a stretch.

    There is a running joke about second year med students. They learn about strange diseases and often diagnose themselves as having them because they talk themselves into seeing the symptoms. Embouchure is similar. Everything that we can't do gets blamed on the chops and the expectation is that a "new" embouchure will fix all of that. I say HOGWASH.

    There are many roads to range and they are covered with the blood of trumpet players that tried and lost. Evolution not revolution have always seemed to be the best course of action.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  3. crazyandy88

    crazyandy88 Pianissimo User

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    Adam Rapa is all about tongue arching. He is a great teacher...my one lesson with him helped me tremendously. He teaches online lessons via Skype. www.adamrapa.com and click on the iBrass link. Or...if you live in New York so does he now and you may be able to get a lesson in person.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  4. Jarrett

    Jarrett Piano User

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    I'm using a book called Tongue Level Exercises by Claude Gordon that is helpful in this. I'd never even thought about "tongue arch" before, but being made more aware of it (I was already doing it as I suspect many do naturally) I have been able to really hone in on it and spend some time practicing for the CG book(s).
    Don't expect miracles, it just seems to bring me around to a more relaxed, balanced approach to playing.

    Also, I gotta backup Rowuk on Pops approach. I guess that "style" of playing is not appealing to me, so I suspect his approach wouldn't interest me either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  5. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    john sez:
    The more I look into information to better understand how a tounge arch works when playing, the more I believe I am not using it. Right now I know I have other problems and flaws to beat out of my playing, but this is something that I should be doing when playing all of the time anyway which is why I'm asking.
    ----------
    Hi John,
    Can you whistle? If so you'll notice how the tongue changes from lying on the bottom of the mouth (when you whistle low) to the tongue touching the top of the mouth (when you whilstle high)
    Here's where it gets sticky:
    Manipulation of the oral cavity does not make your range go up or down or change notes. The aperture does.
    I was in a loooooong discussion with Rowuk about this some time ago and we discussed Bernolli and his principle. The science suggests that its the aperture that makes the note, not oral manipulation.
    With that said, here's what I know:
    I use Arch Tongue and Hiss (ATH) (a site you might want to check out) and it really helps with ease in playing. In my own defense, it is hard for me to escape this technique since I'm an avid whistler.
    One person during the discussion suggested that possibly ATH reduces the psi in the mouth that's necessary to get the job done in the upper range.
    Another person suggested that when the tongue arches, it changes the air stream that hits the aperture.
    I think it would be safe to say that ATH does not change the notes but coordinating ATH with what the aperture is doing makes getting the job done, easier.
     
  6. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    Rowuk sez:
    There are many roads to range and they are covered with the blood of trumpet players that tried and lost. Evolution not revolution have always seemed to be the best course of action.
    -------------
    I would suggest there are two:
    Using arm muscles to make pressure against the lips to achieve the notes.
    Using lip muscles to change the notes.
    As for the evolution/revolution statement, in my musical life its always been a combination of the two. I'll discover(revolution) something that really helps my playing and it will help for about two weeks (Honeymoon period). Then I sink into a long period of woodshedding (evolution) where I have to get my mind and body to adapt to this new way of doing something. Spike and plateau, spike and plateau. Its the way I've developed.
     
  7. john7401

    john7401 Pianissimo User

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    Thanks guys.

    I loved today when I got to hear the trumpet above me in band. After just a week and a half I could really hear how much she improved, regardless of range, because all the practice she did. She doesn't even have a B above the staff yet (as a junior now). However, I really loved it because is shows me just how far I can still can go regardless of range. Really that's all I keep freaking out about with alot of my posts I'm finding myself posting, but this really helps me see what I should be more focussed on.

    What I also liked it when I asked her how much and what she has been practicing recently. She told me she practiced alot over break, but when she said she just did alot of scale work, that really inspired me to practice more. Something as simple as that, even though she worked on other stuff, with just lots of practice time showing that much improvement really inspires me to practice more.

    Anyway, thanks for putting up with this story and giving me good responses.
     
  8. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Nobody "uses" the internal stuff. It is a symptom of good playing; not the cause. By all means, introduce your body to all the vowels in all the registers, then leave it alone and produce the best music with the best sound you can.

    Practicing helps too.

    Have fun practicing!
     
  9. Jarrett

    Jarrett Piano User

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    Nov 11, 2003
    Richland, MO
    funny you say that markie. . I also started thinking about the Tongue Arch from my whistling. In fact, I can whistle as high as I can play... weird huh. . .
     

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