Transferring to a Closed Setting

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Mark_Kindy, Nov 16, 2011.

  1. Pete Anderson

    Pete Anderson Pianissimo User

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    Given that info I would recommend ignoring everything I just posted... Definitely work with what you have. You can't play a high F unless your chops are doing something more or less correctly. You're probably pretty close to figuring it out and you just need some small tweaks.

    It is certainly possible to at least squeak double C's pretty easily even on an open embouchure, so don't think that you NEED to use lip compression.

    I don't think experimenting is a bad thing but don't even think about making a full-on switch, imo :-p
     
  2. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Alright, its good to hear more that's reinforcing the idea of sticking with what I have. I'm glad you took time to ask some questions too, lets me know you're considering all! Do you have any recommendations for lightening up on mouthpiece pressure with an open setting, or is that perhaps something I'll have to learn to live with?
     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark,
    lowering pressure can only occur when we support better. That comes from better breathing.

    The aperature gravitates to its most efficient state if we are sensibly practicing enough. I use longtones, lipslurs and scales for stuff like that in monitored lessons.

    I do not advocate or damn aperature size, as a matter of fact, I never need to talk about it because my students build from the bottom up. They have "usable" high Cs and Ds after a couple of years of playing and an opportunity to add a couple of usable notes a year after that through hard work. They do not need to define themselves through high notes, they just play them.

    Adding notes is not an issue. Being the high note player in a band needs so much more however. I am glad that it is not so easy. If it was, we would have too much out of time, out of style, out of space noise in band.
     
  4. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    I agree -- range without precision, style, or context means nothing.

    And if I learned anything from this experiment, is that I CAN support better. The closed setting actually seemed to require it --- so now I should try to apply that instead to how I usually play. Thanks for the advice! This will likely help me with slurs and such as well, I predict.
     
  5. Pete Anderson

    Pete Anderson Pianissimo User

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    I think what you have so far is probably pretty good, but clearly you're not quite there yet. But almost, probably. Keep experimenting with the "open" setup. Keep in mind that if something causes "stuffiness" it may actually be a good thing - you WANT your lips to resist the air more than they currently are.

    Mouthpiece pressure... Well, some amount of it is necessary. Consider how much air pressure you're using to play high notes - you need at least as much force coming back towards your face. As long as it's not uncomfortable, I wouldn't worry about how much you're using.

    If you do need an uncomfortable amount, I will say that that's a symptom, not a problem - it's indicative of something else that isn't working properly. You can't just use less pressure and expect to still be able to play the same way you normally do. Pressure is usually a habit developed as a result of the lips not being able to withstand the air pressure required for higher notes. The muscles aren't strong enough to keep the lips in place, and clamping down on them with the mouthpiece helps keep them from blowing apart. This is why you didn't need it when you were playing with your lip compression embouchure - you were using the muscles more effectively to keep the lips together.

    Since your corners move inwards anyways, you might try experimenting with using more of a slight pucker set for your embouchure. This will both create a deeper channel of vibrating tissue and allow you to use the orbicularis oris muscle effectively.


    I don't see how "supporting better" is going to help reduce mouthpiece pressure if the lips don't have the strength to keep themselves from being blown apart by that "support". He'll blow harder, and as a result be forced to use more pressure to keep the lips in place. Unless, of course, the pressure is actually compensating for something else. I could be wrong. Certainly worth experimenting with though, in any case.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2011
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Very simple: support is not blowing harder. Support is filling up in a relaxed way and synchronizing air with the other necessary body functions. I have been teaching for a long time and the by far most common problem is breath support. The players generally do not have the right amount of air for the phrase being played. They also do not have the exhale synchronized with the embouchure, ears, brain and tongue. When the air starts running out - they apply pressure to compensate, when the chops run out, they apply more pressure to compensate, when the brain runs out, they apply even more pressure to compensate.

    Getting the breathing cycle organized and integrated is the fastest way to get a player straightened out. Unfortunately, that does not happen over the internet.

    The aperature is a function of the organization of the embouchure muscles, tongue and breathing cycle. Organization and integration of the necessary parameters and committing them to habit (thousands of repetitions) are the only real solution. It is amazing how the chops fall in line when the rest is sorted out!
     
  7. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    I think both have made some valid points here --

    I've tried it out today, working on reducing pressure.
    In attempting to play with less pressure, I have indeed needed some more muscular involvement in the face. However, that was coupled with the need for more air support as well. I suppose they are not mutually exclusive
     
  8. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark,

    what the hell is a Maggio-Stevens Hybrid? At your level of development, what makes you think that even if you have read about it, that it applies to you without the necessary YEARS of training? I think that you need regular lessons from a teacher in the know. Success is measured in months and years - not in minutes of fooling around. Try and train a curl-in/curl-out while playing. No, forget that I said that. I know what the next posts will look like.

    Why can't the young player of today just go out and shed to earn what they are capable of. Why the fantasy of a magical embouchure? A downloadable Double C cheat? When I was marching, I was most concerned about straight rows and lines and keeping my upper body "shock-free". No time for embouchure ANALysis when on the move............ No mirror to look at what I thought I felt either.
     
  10. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    ^ I was going to delete my post after I realized myself exactly what you responded.

    I was trying to describe merely what I felt at the time when it was happening (we were in the stands). I told my teacher about it (yes, I have a teacher) and we had a discussion about everything I've mentioned on here. She feels similarly as you, Rowuk, and with good reason. And I wasn't looking to find a magical embouchure (well I was in the beginning, but the other day was just an accident). As I mentioned in my other post, clearly you have been correct, and I am trying to work on it. I apologize for my hastiness, another habit I need to get rid of.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011

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