Tribulations of the tongue

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by DLP08, Oct 30, 2007.

  1. DLP08

    DLP08 New Friend

    Sep 2, 2007
    As many of you know from my other thread, I am attempting Arbans Carnival of Venice, to be performed in February. After about a week, the fingerings are starting to flow, and the ideas are in my head, but the tonguing is ridiculous!

    I can double tongue a little already, and understand the concept, but as much as I try my "kuh" sounds like a "kkldfgl;kj". I was hoping that maybe some of you had any book recommendations, or practice techniques that would steer me down the right path of a better, stronger tongue,(curse this darn thing) as well as a better understanding of the technique.

    Thanks! the "kkldfgl;kj" double tonguer, David.
  2. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

    Mar 21, 2006
    Play the tonguing exercises in the Arban book. Start really slow and focus on making your ka tongue not sound different from your ta.
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    Clarke had a brilliant approach: soft and slow, work on KKKKKKKK as much as TTTTTTTT.
    Many beginners (intermediates, pros) have better luck with gggggggg instead of K and dddddddd instead of T as they are spoken with less force. In theory, that should make no difference, but it practically does.
    The fast tongueing required by the Carnival needs a tongue that flows on your airstream. That is why soft and slow are VERY significant in the beginning. If you train your tongue to work like a jackhammer, you will never be able to play quickly. You can train tonguing without the horn too: Ddg Ddg Ddg Ddg............... and alternatively Dgd Dgd Dgd Dgd Dgd....... The first syllable should be LIGHTLY accented. Use a metronome, aim for rhythmic perfection!
  4. brem

    brem Mezzo Forte User

    Sep 13, 2007
    Quebec City, QC, Canada
    huh... jackhammer?! example? :D
  5. Sterling

    Sterling Mezzo Forte User

    Oct 22, 2007
    Marcellus, NY
    Try to relax. Use da ga da ga instead of ta ka ta ka. It sounds strange, but a legato double and triple tongue helps to lessen fatigue. It also helps the flow of each phrase.
  6. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

    Mar 23, 2006
    Parts Unknown
    All of the above! Try thinking of your tongue as "melting in your mouth" practice the "k/g" alone, do Arbans. We can work our tongue to the point of exhaustion without ill effect, so keep making it tired, and wait for the miracle.
  7. Billy B

    Billy B Pianissimo User

    Nov 5, 2004
    Des Moines, IA
    I find that the problem more often than not is in the vowell rather than the consonant. When we have articulation problems we tend to focus more on the tongue often aggrevating the problem. Think DAAAAAH GAAAAAH, sing DAAAAAH GAAAAAH, play DAAAAAH GAAAAAH. Or whatever consonant you wish to use. Just remember the AAAAAH is the sound.
  8. Bear

    Bear Forte User

    Apr 30, 2004
    Something I have come up against a lot in the lessons I partake in is that a lot of the younger people do not understand the concept of air flow. The air must be flowing properly to help the tounge do it's job. Especially on the back tounges such as Ka, Ga, or whatever syllable best suits you. Remember, you don't want to cut off the air when multiple tounging, just think of it as your tounge indenting the airflow.
  9. DLP08

    DLP08 New Friend

    Sep 2, 2007
    That gave me the crazy idea of tonguing with ka for many easier things like school warmups instead of ta. It hasn't been too long and now I'm able to get through some marches with my ka. I can get out the chromatic one in the 2nd variation! Thanks for all the support guys!

    and thanks TM, for letting me have a place to whine about things! :cool:

  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    the jackhammer approach to tonguing involves a conscious, forceful attempt to pronounce the syllables TA TA KA instead of the more productive as light as possible ttk or ddg. Big movement of the tongue does not allow for fast tonguing. You really need to use the absolute minimum of motion for the greatest possible effect.

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