Triple D

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by rowuk, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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  2. Bach219

    Bach219 Mezzo Piano User

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    Pedal C, Pedal D, Pedal E, Pedal F, Low G,... Low C --> Middle C (tuning C), Middle D, Middle E... Middle A, Middle B --> High C, High D, High E... High A, High B --> Double C, Double D, Double, E...Double A (This is above Double A) Double B--> Triple C....and so on!

    With the G, A, and B notes just under high C, when I'm talking to a friend in school I usually refer to it as a high G, A, and B for the sake of argument!
     
  3. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    The way I was taught F# below the staff to first space F natural was low range , F# in the staff to top line F middle range , F# above the staff to F above the staff high range, F# to F above double C was double high, above that triples. This way we're using the trumpets range in octaves from bottom to top. I left out pedal tones because they are only used for practice purposes and not in performances.
     
  4. jdostie

    jdostie Piano User

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    Here is a problem. Middle C is the C you are referring to as Low C. Trumpet players often do this, but Middle C is found in the middle of the "GRAND STAFF", not the middle of the Treble staff. It's almost in the middle of keyboard instruments as well.

    As to the doubles, except here on TM, I have usually heard the notes above high C referred to as doubles, then triples after double C - even by teachers. I won't argue that point, because there seems to be adamant positions held by both - and I haven't seen real documentation as to that, but for Middle C, music theory books are consistent - even if musicians are not. Middle C is the C between the Bass staff and the treble staff, and in the middle of the grand staff.

    from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_C

    "While the expression "Middle C" is generally clear across instruments and clefs, some musicians tend to use the term to refer to the C note in the middle of their specific instrument's range. For example, C4 may be called "Low C" by someone playing a Western concert flute (which has a higher and narrower playing range than a piano), while C5 (523.251 Hz) would be "Middle C". This technically inaccurate practice has led some pedagogues to encourage standardizing on C4 as the definitive "Middle C" in instructional materials across all instruments.[1]"
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Al,
    I was taught that protons, neutrons and electrons were the smallest particles too. Politicians promise to reduce the budget and get elected. There are enough people that convince themselves that smoking and alcohol are good for you.

    There is a truth and just because of the passing on of myths it doesn't change.

    Octaves start with C - the note that just happens to be between the treble and bass clefs (not by accident). Organ stops are 2 foot, 4, foot, 8 foot which also corresponds to C. What you claim is not accepted by ANY musical authority. It is street launguage like all sorts of 4 letter words that are fine in the on the street, but nowhere else.

    Our reference to double C comes from England. The English octave naming convention lables high C as "top C". Our double C is called "Double Top C" in this convention. (Dolmetsch Online - Music Theory Online - Staffs, Clefs & Pitch Notation )

    What you were taught was simply not true. I understand that language is regional and that the message is more important than how it is said, but why defend something false?

    The lowest note on a trumpet is C not F# It is the fundemental.

    I will continue to educate the misguided and misinformed. We do need a standard and do not need BRAGGING RIGHTS.

    Just like I can't convince the smoker or drinker that what they are doing is not "healthy", I do not expect to get universal cooperation. I hope accepted facts are convincing enough to the musicians that want to pass exams where street language does not count!

    For the thickheaded I offer the following:

    Helmholtz pitch notation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Octaves and the Major-Minor Tonal System
    Dolmetsch Online - Music Theory Online - Staffs, Clefs & Pitch Notation
    Scientific pitch notation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  6. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    Sorry to disagree but what you are saying is not true , unless all the players on the east coast are wrong , unless when some one asks you to play the lowest note on the trumpet you play a C below the staff and tell them that's the lowest note , that the others are fundamentals and not notes.
    I understand middle C on the piano is between the treble and bass clefs , but we're playing trumpet and talking on a trumpet web site not a piano site. If you want to get technical your not talking about C but really Bb , that's what's actually being played. The confusion is when we use different instruments as examples such as a church organ which I've never played. I know my trumpet starts on F# below staff and goes as high as I can.
     
  7. jdostie

    jdostie Piano User

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    I'm not trying to get technical, just avoid confusion between parts. It's not a question of Bb or C that I'm getting at, nor do I want to argue it. Like you, I was taught the other convention for the doubles, and always assumed that middle C is in the treble staff.

    I have, in fact, wondered why when they started building these instruments they didn't call C Bb and thus avoid any confusion. But that's a done deal - unless of course you are using a C trumpet . . . In one sense, "who cares, it's just names," but in the other sense, if someone says "why don't you put in a high A there," you don't want to have to question it - of course you'd probably know from the surrounding notes, but you get my meaning.
     
  8. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    jdostie , I'm agreeing with you, it's when people insist on calling the C below the the staff middle C is when the confusion begins , kids assume if that's middle C then the C an octave higher must be high C , then the real fun starts trying to explain what note you really mean. where if we stuck to trumpet range it would eliminate a lot of kids calling high C's double's and double's triples . I know to me it doesn't make sense calling C below the staff middle , C above the staff high, and leave out a whole octave and call the C in between 3rd space.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Trumpets have been transposed instruments since the rennaissance. That is why we call our double C that - it is written that way especially for us. The trumpet "unions" guilds enforced this and it still insures that a player can pick up the horn mentioned on the part and just play it. That gets tough with Mendelssohn where we have trumpets in Bb, C, D, Eb, E and F, all in the same work.

    I was trained at Eastman, I guess that is east coast enough. We learned it out of books written by people that knew better. I am sure we can check out Julliard, Peabody and any of the other accepted institutions. Ther will be no argument

    Al, you know better and if you choose to ignore established, written standards, then there is nothing I can do to change it. For anyone interested in studying music, you are perpetuating a myth that does not help them.

    The same goes for the pedal C which can be found in many renowned methods. It is the fundemental on any trumpet regardless of pitch

    The reason that I even get involved in the discussion is that we need a common language for many reasons. You can buck written fact, that does not help you or anybody else here.

    Like I said before, there are people that also insist that smoking is healthy. I can't help them.

    By the way, the references above have nothing to do with the piano and it seems that only some Americans have trouble with this. In Europe the octaves are numbered. The real Double C is C4 for all instruments in Germany for instance. The octaves still start with C.
     
  10. Nikv

    Nikv Pianissimo User

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    He was a little flat. :lol:
     

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