Trumpet Cornet - the Difference

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by trumpetsplus, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. J. Jericho

    J. Jericho Fortissimo User

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    So far we can say that since the leadpipes, bells, tuning slides, valve block, and valve slides are essentially the same, and the crooks probably don't determine the timbre, the difference lies elsewhere. Mouthpiece rims, cups, and throats are the same, but what about the transition from the area starting at the throat and ending where the leadpipe is the same in both instruments? Could it be that the short backbore of the cornet mouthpiece and the smaller dimensions of its mouthpiece receiver/leadpipe transition can account for the difference?
     
  2. J. Jericho

    J. Jericho Fortissimo User

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    Since you have expressed disagreement with Ivan's posts, would you care to come up with what you believe to be an accurate explanation of the difference between trumpet and cornet?
     
  3. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    My understanding is/was that the main difference (and there is a big difference between a Besson Sovereign cornet and a Xeno trumpet, say) was in how conical the conical bits were: the 'classic' cornets being more strongly flared (start smaller, finish broader).

    Is this not the case?
     
  4. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    This evening I pulled out my last two purchases to compare, "The Regent" by Ohio Band Instrument Co, a sub co. of Reynolds, Trumpet, 1946 and Cornet, 1947.

    Both instruments have the same valve block and all slides are interchangeable, bore 0.446", bells 4.5" diameter.

    Differences, mouthpiece receiver, leadpipe, cornet smaller entry and shorter than trumpet to valve block, cornet bell more conical and larger in throat than trumpet, extra loop in tail between valve block and bow. I will try to photograph both tomorrow. For more detailed measurements please ask.

    Playing, Trumpet with Dennis Wick 3 mouthpiece, middle of road sound, what I get on most of my trumpets with this mouthpiece.

    Cornet, with Wick 4 mouthpiece, typical cornet sound not much different to my Besson 928 Soverign.

    HOWEVER, Trumpet played with Wick 4 mouthpiece with adapter was much darker and more fluffly than cornet??? Time to resurrect my Audio Spectrum Analyzer.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  5. Dupac

    Dupac Fortissimo User

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    In connection with the subject or not, an interesting document:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    The cornet I am using as a "model zero" is a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial ca 1970 (I also have several US cornets here for comparison). This model Boosey was pretty much standard issue in British Brass Bands at the time. The venturi diameter is 0.436" whereas the venturi on my trumpets is 0.440", so no major difference there. There is no change is bore size through either the main tuning slide or the secondary slide (the secondary crook) - it is 0.462", cylindrical.

    However the mouthpiece insertion detail is very different between cornet and trumpet. The cornet mouthpiece fits inside the receiver and then the bore steps out to the venturi. This is very much like the French Horn system. The trumpet mouthpiece more or less butts up against (yes, with a small gap) the lead pipe venturi. This difference explains the difference in minor diameters between the cornet and trumpet mouthpieces.
     
  7. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    This discussion caused me to dig up some measurements I took 8 or 9 years ago. Of course, this is just anecdotal evidence comparing two instruments from the same maker. I have a Bach Strad 43 trumpet and a Bach Strad 184G shepherd's crook cornet. I did some rough measurements on them and here are the results:

    Tapered section of leadpipe: Trumpet =9.5" Cornet=14.5"
    Total leadpipe length (to the 3rd valve): Trumpet=25.5" Cornet=30.5"
    Bell length: Trumpet=25.5" Cornet=20.5"

    The cornet begins with a smaller receiver and has a bit more severe bell taper than the trumpet. Interestingly, the trumpet ratio of leadpipe to bell lengths is 1:1, and the 184 cornet ratio is 3:2. Additionally, the Bach 184 leadpipe starts out much smaller just past the the receiver than either the Bach 181 cornet or the Bach trumpet leadpipes, and the 184 tuning slide continues the increase in bore size from mouthpiece receiver to valve block (transitioning from .459 to .462 bore), so there is quite a bit more conical nature to this part of the instrument than found on most trumpets.
     
  8. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    Thanks Dale, very interesting.

    How do the mouthpiece receivers differ? Does the cornet receiver taper down to flush with the beginning of the lead pipe, or is it stepped like a trumpet? The 181 cornets I have seen here use a #37 bell which is a trumpet bell, although shortened. I cannot remember seeing a 184.
     
  9. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    Ivan, Is there typically a "gap" in the cornet? I suppose if so, the gap would be closer to the lips than the gap of a trumpet...and might that cause some difference in the timbre? Notching?
     
  10. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

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    That is what the last few posts are about. None of the cornets I have here have a gap. I am interested in whether Dale's 184 has one. French Horns have no gap....

    [​IMG]
     

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