Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Fusion2002, Jan 22, 2005.

  1. tpter1

    tpter1 Forte User

    Jan 12, 2005
    Northern New York
    If I may jump in with a thought...One of my students is having difficulty with ttk approach, so I have her doing t-k-t. Oddly, as we worked on it, I noticed that T-K-T becomes T-T-K on repeated use (T-k-T-T-k-T). She still uses it, and still is uncomfortable with T-T-K.
  2. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

    Oct 26, 2003
    I very much agree with what Manny said. I also agree with what trumpetmike said on this - that it is good to know both and be able to use them interchangeably.

    I have always had a much easier time using TKT TKT. It just rolls off of my tongue a little faster and cleaner. Most of the time this method serves me just fine but I have to admit, there have been a couple of times in the past where I needed to be able to do both thanks to a funky articulation pattern in conjunction with some double tonguing in a line where the syllables just didn't fall quite right if I used TKT TKT.

    In a perfect world with perfect articulation, all syllables sound the same, but if you are otherwise not perfect in your articulation, the two different methods pulses are just a little bit different, which may or may not be desirable, depending on what you are playing. The TKT TKT method tends to pulse a little like:

    TkT TkT TkT TkT

    The TTK TTK method tends to pulse like:

    Ttk Ttk Ttk Ttk

    Does that makes sense? So basically, if you were counting it like 6/8, the TKT TKT method would pulse like 1.a2.a1.a2.a whereas the TTK TTK method is more beat oriented: 1..2..1..2.. It's just an observation, but I would tend to think that in the long run, depending on how technically proficient you want to eventually be and where you want to play, I would tend to think that the TTK TTK method would be prefered in the end.
  3. rjzeller

    rjzeller Forte User

    Mar 7, 2005
    Rochester, MN
    Theoretically (from a strictly mechanical standpoint), I would surmise that the T-K-T K-T-K method provides for the most speed. IF you can master it. The accent/beat falling on alternating articulations makes for a real workout at first. A fellow musician told me of a guy he knew who did his Master's thesis on triple tonguing, and this was the pattern he decided one should use.

    Personally, I've always found T-K-T T-K-T the easiest for me, and for many students. The difference is mostly phsychological, but I think mechanically it's more sound as well: The last T is really a reaction to the K syllable, and acts as a closing device, allowing for the tongue to simply react to the next motion, or the starting T of the next beat.

    Striking the T syllable evokes a reaction that makes the following K come naturally. (front of tongue releases making room for a new syllable -- K -- then returns in response to the K releasing). This is one complete motion from T to K back to T again. Because of this "one motion" feel, the following set is also a self-contained unit and has little bearing on the tripple that comes before or after it. To me it's more like a Strike-K-Release pattern so the following strike comes naturally. Thus the doubling of TT between beats becomes less of a factor. Because the brain is working one beat at a time, it can handle these little TKT passes without comprehending the repeated TT between beats because it handles the second set/beat irrespective of the first.

    Try this: T- -T (drop the K but keep the tripple feel). Then do T- -T T- -T over and over. In 6/8 that's eigth, eigth rest, eigth, eigth, eigth rest, eigth, and so on. Now sliding the K in is perfectly natural: TKT TKT TKT TKT.

    This is not to say that the Arban method is not good, or even preferred. Just trying to illustrate why, I think, so many of us have gotten used to using TKT instead. In the end I guess the real question is does it sound the way it should? Can you keep up with others and is your speed improving or has it stagnated at a certain speed?

    If everything sounds just right..well...more power to you (us)....

    Z (these are merely MY opinions. Take them for what they're worth).

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