unintentional movement of bottom lip

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by trmpt_plyr, Sep 11, 2009.

  1. trmpt_plyr

    trmpt_plyr Pianissimo User

    Jun 12, 2009
    while i play, i have noticed that my bottom lip moves to the right. I'm pretty sure that my embouchure is correct, it's just that my bottom lip moves to the right a bit. The ring on my bottom lip is slightly to the left of the impression on my top lip. Will this be a problem?
  2. RHSbigbluemarchingband

    RHSbigbluemarchingband Mezzo Piano User

    Jan 17, 2009
    I may be wrong, but I don't think your supposed to have a ring on your lips......I never get one......
  3. s.coomer

    s.coomer Forte User

    Mar 25, 2005
    Indianapolis, In
    I would guess, without seeing you or hearing you, that you are using too much pressure. However, the best way for this to be diagnosed is for you to find a good teacher and do what they tell you. No one here can absolutely give you a diagnosis without seeing and hearing you play.
  4. Pedal C

    Pedal C Mezzo Forte User

    Jan 24, 2005
    I've seen some great players who's upper and lower mpc marks don't line up. It probably doesn't mean anything by itself...good or bad.
  5. Bach219

    Bach219 Mezzo Piano User

    Jun 25, 2008
    It's probably a bad habit that won't be hard (well kinda) to get rid of with a teachers assistance. Maybe your doing that to compensate for air support?!? But if you are doing great playing overall, by all means nothing really needs to be fixed!

    Just my 2 cent!
  6. markquinn

    markquinn New Friend

    Jun 9, 2009
    In the Anatowind system, the "Ring" you are looking at on your lips is important to study and you are observent to notice the important information that it is sharing with you. The ring does show the amount and type of pressure you are putting on your teeth, lips and also the upper and lower jaw. The Anatowind process I study defines these rings as “Ring Readings”.

    The issue with the lower jaw is important as the lower jaw can move and allow change into the embouchure as muscular exercise takes place across the playing habit.

    I would look at how the air stream is connected to the head structure. Is the air support correctly connected? What are the time frames that this movement is taking place in according to the time spent playing? The first step in examination of the issue is to make sure you are correctly connecting the air to the head structure as poor connection of the air stream can cause lack of correct muscular function in and of itself.

    Anatowind research shows that muscular corridnation moves through the front facial muscles and begins to include the back facial muscles after about 20 to 30 min of playing. As the back facial muscles become more active in the playing habit, the lower jaw moves acording to the pressure placed upon the upper and lower lip in relation to the contact with the crown tooth. This can change the coordination and if the player is not aware of the movement and does not correctly follow it, the lower jaw can shift away from the contact with the mouthpiece causing increasing pressure on the upper lip and increased degradation of the overall performance over time.

    Conventional thinking is focused upon the upper lip and jaw as this does not move and is more easily studied as a result. The fact is both the upper and lower teeth, lips, and jaw work in a coordination to create the playing habit we call an embouchure.

    Anatowind research has found that contact with the crown tooth into the lower jaw is vital to keeping the correct contact with the lower jaw; and therefore keeping pressure into the lower jaw functionally correct as it relates to the upper lip. Learning to follow the visual look of the ring readings can show you what is happening in your embouchure over the extended period of time that you practice.

    Without seeing you play over a webcam or seeing you in person I can only hazard a guess what is occurring with your playing. That said, based upon experience in my own playing, I would believe that you may be experiencing a slant of the lower jaw over the course of your performance. That slant is resulting in the movement of the ring on your lip. The jaw and connected teeth are moving under the lip.

    You did not share with me what occurs in your playing as this change occurs so I would need additional information to evaluate this “guess”. Anatowind looks at music performance in relation to the following factors: Tone, Intonation, Range, Volume, and Tempo. These are measured across three vents of Visual, Neural and Aural to measure change in a performance. You can read more about the Anatowind process on the following website: Anatowind Music Clinic Where physiology and music meet..

    If you would like to discuss this more in depth, please message me.
  7. B15M

    B15M Forte User

    Dec 30, 2003
    Monroe Ct.
    That stuff above is pretty interesting.

    I think of it like this. Start in the center. Adjust as needed for comfort.

    I have seen really great players that play in varied positions. I tell my students that playing in the center gives you the best chance but isn't everything.

    I think being relaxed and comfortable is most important. I would look at why the ring isn't centered. Once you have that answer you can decide weather to mess with it.

    I have found in my playing that changing the bottom jaw position does change things.
  8. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

    Aug 9, 2007
    Levittown , NY
    If there are no problems with your tone,range,flexibility ,endurance,or comfort, then don't worry about it, we all can't use the exact same settings, i.e. 50/50 upper and lower lip, centered exactly in the middle and pointing at a perfectly straight angle out front,there are exceptions to every rule,don't obsess over what is a textbook embouchure , so unless there is a problem just play, if there is a problem, find a good embouchure teacher, not just a trumpet teacher, because they don't all ways understand ,or know how to fix certain problems, they only know how they play ,and what was told to them by past teachers , without actually experiencing it or working with it themselves.
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    If you have a steady diet of advanced slurs and they work at moderately fast speed, your chops will align themselves for the best results. I like exercizes that remove the need for extensive, crippling analysis. When I play, I try and make music. Most of my "thinking" is done before or after I play.

    Software like Cubase or Audacity allow you to record your playing and examine the waveform afterwards. How the examination relates to universal truth is up for grabs though. It is very easy to draw conclusions based on symptoms instead of the real reasons. That is why I have no faith in all of these high note systems. They ignore the factor "human". DIY implies that the player can really understand something that they have never experienced, that they have the dedication and patience to do the right thing enough to make it a habit. Many people taking lessons with fine teachers don't even get that far. Does that make the system bad? Yes, as far as I am concerned. If we are going to take somebodies money, we have to take the wholeness of their being (especially the psychology) into account. I miss that on 99% of the ad type posts here. Any isolated focus on "technique" is very suspect in my book.

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