Update on the Holton Collegiate from 1946

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Dec 30, 2008.

  1. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

    Nov 5, 2008
    Well after I scrubed the snot out of it the valves actualy turned out preety good. They do have some worn spots but the are still sealing well. What I thought was scratch's turned out to be lots of dried streaked gumy valve oil mixed with atic dust. So the valves are smoth and fast if anything they would only need to be plated back to spec as they are true and still sealing well so I am not going make that a priority at all. All the slides fit insanely tight except for the No.2 slide. So I think I just need to expand the brass inner tubes a bit and it will be as tight as ever. It has extremly long slides with some tight single radius round crooks every where. Oh the water key that right their is only one and it is on the main tuneing slide needs a new spring. The piston's are bottom sprung and are solid they are not light weight and hollow like so many modern trumpet's. The caps and buttons are fine in fact the top caps are recessed with felts under the buttons and go deep into the tops when depressed. Some nuckley head though took pliers and did not protect the stems when they where takeing it apart at some point in it's 63 years of use so their are some gouges on the stem's. I am going to try and file and penn the gouges down but I might get different stems and bottom cap's to dress it up a bit. The top cap's and buttons rock just the way they are.

    So after I got it scrubed and polished my oldest boy was beggingme to play it!!! So I put some scotch tape over the water key and let him play it. Lucky we have plenty of mouth pieces becasue his Yamaha 14B4 did not sound that good on it. My old Old's #3 sounded the best but I need to get the rim fixed it has some nick's that make you lips sore. It came with one ofmy trumpet's already beat up. So he tried my vintage Reynolds 7A and that sounds almost as nice as the Old's #3. That trumpet and him are like a match set they sound really big together. It is a pea shooter and has a the smallest bore on the bellcrook that I have ever seen on a trumpet yet it does not sound stuffy at all. In fact it sounds absolutely beautiful. It has a very clean pure sound. It is right in between how we like a modern lead trumpet to sound and how an old Holton Clarke Cornet would sound. In fact it is a little on the sweet side but not so much that you would think it was a cornet. It really suprisedme how well this thing projected and how clean and centered or focused the sound was.

    I am thinking that it blows as easy as it does because every single tuneing slide and bell crook is single radius round. The valves have some of the largest holes I have seen on a valve. The valves are also really large for a trumpet valve by modern standards.

    It played very effortlessly for my son..... So he begged and pleaded and now it is his. It only cost me $26. The silver cleaned up nicely every place but around the top of the valve engine. Since this trumpet does not have first valve sadle or trigger adn no third valve trigger or ring and really is not designed to accomadate them it will have to be replaced sooner rather then later as he progress's but for now he is digging it.

    I am probably going to try Binak I have laying around her some place on these valves just to play it safe or I might get some Hetmeans unless UltraPure has a thicker oil. Since they are sight sponsor's I will try Ultrapure first and see if they make something like the origanal Hetman's oil. Right now I am useing Holton valve oil on which is thicker then most petro-valve oils.I just to make sure he does nto have any problems. I tried it out and they felt really smoth to me but I want to air onthe side of caution!
  2. s.coomer

    s.coomer Forte User

    Mar 25, 2005
    Indianapolis, In
    I would be careful about using a synthetic oil on valves this old. I would advise you use some Al Cass or something not synthetic. I use Ultra Pure on my valves, but am a bit afraid to use it on an antique horn of which I have four rotary trumpets that are quite old.
  3. MrTrimmings

    MrTrimmings New Friend

    Jul 26, 2007

    I have a 1954 Super Collegiate. I tried UltraPure and had trouble with it so I went back to Al Cass and have had no problems since. I even ordered some Holton oil to try and it was worse than the UP oil. Best of luck!


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  4. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

    Nov 5, 2008
    Mr.Trimmings what type of trouble did you have? Could you explain a bit?

    I used Al Cass back in Elementary and Middle School so I know it work well it just does not last long. I am trying to make the move away from toxic oils with petro-ditillates over the longterm. That would be my goal I especialy want something non-toxic for my son. I know it is notlike he is drinking the stuff but I am overly protective when it comes to chemicals,solvents, pesticides, herbacides etc... with reguard to my three boy's. In fact my Oldest boy got some valve oil one his shirt the first time I let him oil valves and he broke out in a rash all over his chest with in seconds and that was plain jane Holton valve oil nothing fancy in that. SO since he is almost allergic to the stuff I would prefer he not breath the vapors as well. SO far no problem I just have to oil his valves for him before school each day. He already takes allergy medcine every night as all my boy's inheirted allergies fromt heir Mom to a good number of things! I only have one allergy and that is to sulphates so most wine in the USA is off limits to me and their are a few older antibiotics that I cannot use and that is it.

    Because I working on machines and car's when I was about 7 and started my Apprenticeship for Automotive Techinician and machinist in Germany at a fairly young age I have been exposed to all kinds of solvents and hydrocarbon. I am one of the few people I know of that does not and has not had cancer yet. When I worked for the government I worked with some nasty nasty stuff that you wish you could un-invent. So because of my experinces I always at least try to come up with things that are less toxic and if possably even biodegradable. It is unfortunate though that a lot of the more friendly stuff does not always work well enough to make it worth while! So I will still probably try a few of these longer lasting product's. THink how much petrolem can be saved if everone that used valve,rotor,spindle,slide oil could use less and use it less often. If yu took all of those musicins and combined the amount of oil they go through it would be significant.

    I am though extremly interested though in what negative side effects you had??? I ask because their is nothing in a synthetic hydrocarbon by itself that would react any differently tot he alloy's in the trumpet. So if their was a side effect it would have to been with the additive chemistry used. Chemical if you ruleout ester componds then synthic oil made from either iso waxed slac wax or PAO made from manipulated gas(not fuel) usualy methane to build hydrocarbon chain one molacue at a time. So chemicaly it is inert. In fact it is not even polar and has next to no solvency at all bareing ester's. Now personely I would use ester's if money was no object because they are highly polar and have vastly supior charteristics at all extrems and leave almostno deposits behind. Now in order to make th oil stick to the surface and wet the metal they add things, in order to make it pour easily they add things, in order to make it anti-sorrsive so that your breath does nto eat the trumpet up they add things. So it is probably one of the additives not the synthetic part. Synetic behaves the way it does because their is no wax lef tin the oil, all the molacues are the same size instead of random sized molacues all over the place and their are no solvents or sulfur compounds etc.... in it.

    Imagine you took a bag fill of rand sized BB's and dumped them onthe ground. The smaller BB's represent light hydrocarbons these are going to evaperate fast and first leaving just the biggers one behind. The faster these small BB's go away the faster you valves need to be reoiled and the slower they get. The build up left behind is from the evaperation of the light hydrocarbons but not the large one's these large ones hang around get ruptured and oxidize turning into deposits that have dirt and valve material mixed in with them. If silcones are used or solvents it is that much worse. It is like a never ending cycle. Now bear in mind it is not like it is killing anyone that I know of it just means you have to oil and clean valves more often. I just wish I knew which ones had silicones inthem so I could stay far far away from them!

    I would suspect that traditional old school valve oils like Al Cass have zero anti-corossive additives or pour point dispersents or anything like that just some form of vegtable or animal fat and Kerosen etc...... I have to wounder how great Whale oil would work not that I want to kill whales for valve oil just something I wounder about since high grade whale oil ester's where used for a long time for wrist watch's and early automatic transmission fluids! I have an antique aviation compus that still has it's OEM fill of Whale oil while many today have Kerosen as their lupricant in them. It was a gift from an old friend and Bush Pilot in Alaska.

    Just so you know to make an ester you react a fat be it plant based or vegtable based. You can also make them from scratch. This is what is used in Jet Engine's and some super high grade synthic specialty engine oils not the stuff you buy at Walmart. Companies like Torco,Fuch's,Motul,Redline etc......make some that are either partialy ester based or 100% ester based. The film strength of ester's is off the chart andnot linear with viscosity. SO you could have an insanely thin oil with an HTHS that is higher then some heavy weight conventional pertrolem product that would take 400+ °F and function at -85°F just like it does at room temp. the problem is cost. SO if someone made a product like this they would not sell much since a 2 once bottle would easly last a year or more with daily playing since you would only have to apply the stuff once every other week or so if that. The tricky part would be decideing what to put in it to control corrision. I am almost 100% sure that this is the area that cause most problems for other synthetic oil's. I am thinking that in this area less might be better then more!

    On that same note a single cut high grade petro oil could be made to work great. SIngle cut petro oils are what the swiss use in their watch's traditionaly but they are insanely expensive compared to what has been used inthe past more expensive then synthetics in fact. These come off the extraction tower first time through and are molecularly very uniform and are natural free of solvents and impurities. I suspect that this is what is in BiNak if it is not synthic.

    Personely I would esterfy coconut,castor oil and hemp oils and try them with no additives at first as proof of concept. I would then consult a few friends and have then reverse engineer the additive package in something that is fairly proven like Blue Juice. I would then try useing an additive package simalar to their only weaker since I am more concerned with lubrication and not so much with ouf the chart corresen protection.

    A new valve oil that is non-toxic available in several viscosities and that last's and is from a renewable source not petrolem from the ground is a project for the future. I use an automotive oil that is made from Esterfied castor oil designed for raceing. I then use commerical available certified SM oil additive package designed to produce standard passenger car motor oil. I add a specific amount tothe raceing oil to bring it up to spec in terms of dispersant's and acid nutralizer's, anti oxident's etc....... I end up with a synthetic that is off the charts in terms of performance that has additive levels on par with Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil with heat and flow properties of oils used in Jet Turbine engines. My engine is so clean you could eat off the inside. My wear numbers are single digit and often so low they can not be mesured or not higher then 1PPM after 10,000 miles of useage etc.... GM trained me to be a tribologist in addition to other things I did while I worked for them!
  5. oldlou

    oldlou Forte User

    Aug 28, 2005
    Grand Rapids, Mi.

    To start with, a Holton Collegiate is of fairly recent manufacture and the metalurgy of piston,( Perinet ),valves has been changed very little since their manufacture. In addition to this, I use Hetmans in all three viscosities on the valves of ALL of my cornets and trumpets. Some of these instruments date back to before 1900 and have valves of silver plate, nickel-silver plate monel and copper plate. I cannot brag up Hetmans oils highly enough.

  6. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

    Nov 5, 2008
    I almost ordered a bottle of Hetman's because I know they have been around a long time! I could not believe how many differnt synthetic valve oils are on the market??? It was almost information over load! I want to try their origanal since that is their thicker stuff. I want something thicker then most valve oils but not even 1/2 as thick as 3in1.
  7. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

    Nov 5, 2008
    I tried 3in1 oil today and while it works well to produce a nice smooth action it is a bit too slow. It isnot like I going around playing flight of the bumble bee or anything but I like fast valve action.

    I already know I am going to synthetic. I am wanting to use up some of the oil I have. Plus I do not want to spend as much or more on shipping as I am spending for the oil. So I am going to wait until I need more then just a bottle of oil then I will get a variety of things to try. I almost went with UltraPure just because they do not charge a seperate shipping fee. Their product cost more and I am sure that is why. I hate paying shipping for something small or cheap but since no place with in 100 miles ofmy house has any kind of selection it is internet mail order or bust!
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008

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