upper register problem

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by D_MaN, May 10, 2009.

  1. Markie

    Markie Forte User

    Jan 4, 2009
    Clarksburg, WV
    Hi sofus,
    You're quick to agree with the concept that the tongue and its effect on the oral cavity has no effect on air speed. Try this simple experiment. Take a piece of unused toilet paper (I had to add "unused" so some clown wouldn't ask!!) about a foot long and hold it out from your face about a foot.
    Now, blow "super softly" into the paper and slowly whistle a scale and notice the effect on the paper as your tongue lessens the oral cavity. Be sure NOT to change the shape of your aperture. Just air and the tongue softly whistling a scale. It should take a few tries before you can get a comfortable conclusion. Then do the same thing but whistle a low long note followed by a long high note and octave higher without changing your aperture. What do you notice?
  2. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

    Jul 26, 2008
    Hi, Markie!

    I definitely respect ANYONE who is
    prepared to find the truth by making
    some serious experiments.

    When I started doing the experiment
    you suggested, I wasn´t sure what
    to expect, nor was I sure what you
    thought I would find.

    What I found was something I believe
    you think contradicts my previous statements,
    so let me explain what I found and why I think
    it does not in fact contradict those statements
    of mine.

    I found that when I changed the whistling pitch
    from low to high, the paper (unused, 1 foot long)
    was blown out FURTHER from my face. This could
    be indicating that air speed was higher when the
    higher pitch was whisled, and the fact is; in a sence
    I believe that it could be, too!!

    Now, the thing is; what I´ve stated is that the air
    speed in all cross sections as well as the amount of
    air passing through the system each second is (mainly)
    determined by the SMALLEST aperture and the air pressure
    created by the exhale muscles. When we whistle, the lip
    aperture is a lot bigger than when we play the trumpet
    (lips are actually open), so air speed may very well increase
    in the cross section where the tongue meets the roof of the
    mouth, when the tongue is raised enough to make this cross
    section smaller than the opening between the lips.
    This should not, however, increase the speed of the air
    coming out between the lips (actually it should slow it
    down just a little since the small cross section between
    toungue and roof of mouth will result in a slightly larger
    resistance) since the cavity between tongue and lips
    expands again, making air speed slow down again as it
    approaches the lips.

    So, why is the paper being blown further out at the
    higher pitch? My answer is that I don´t know, and
    that I can only speculate. It could be that the opening
    between the lips is big enough to act as if the tongue
    cross section was the termination of the system ,not
    the lips. Under all circumstances this is worth investigating!

    When I´d tried your experiment I realized that the importance
    of the lip aperture size could easily be determined, so now I
    want you to do an experiment:

    Do what you told me to do, but do it by buzzing your mouthpiece,
    not by whistling. Buzz your mp into a foot of restroompaper.
    First buzz a low note, then play a higher note raising your tongue.
    When you´ve tried it, come back and tell us what you found.

    And, don´t forget; use not used paper!! :D
  3. Markie

    Markie Forte User

    Jan 4, 2009
    Clarksburg, WV
    Hi Sofus,
    The air that's causing the toilet paper to go out further from your face as you whistle from low to high is the same air that will go across the lips.

    I tried your experiment (great idea by the way) which was to do the same thing I recommended but with a buzz.
    Well, first of all it was hard. Buzzing at any pitch made the paper fly way out from my face but once I got control if it (and my embrochure) the paper still significantly moved further from my face. One possible confounding variable with buzzing might be if a person buzzes and shrinks the oral cavity at the same time, does the shrinking of the oral cavity cause the vibrating part (aperture) to become more focused.
    Then I read your instructions a little closer and you said to use a mouthpiece! oops!
    OK, now to do it correctly.
    I used a mouthpiece and also had my daughter to try it. For her the paper went further from the face as she went high. She also has no appriciation for apertures or volume control (she's 6).
    For me the effect was minimal. I couldn't get to the point of changing my oral cavity without changing my aperture. If memory serves me correctly, low notes take more air than high notes. It would be reasonable to think that volume would move the paper suggesting low notes would move the paper more. Just the opposite seems to be true.
    Last edited: May 16, 2009
  4. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

    Jul 26, 2008
    This is interresting Markie!

    I tried to figure out why I couldn´t accept the result from
    the experiment that you made me do, and now I´ve discovered
    two things:

    1) If you use a lot wider piece of paper, like a sheet from a
    newspaper, the effect is a lot smaller compared to when you
    use the restroompaper. This could indicate that the air beam
    leaving your lips at low pitch is wider than at high pitch, and
    that, at low pitch, this beam is too wide to stay entirely within
    the toilet- (sorry, restroom is such a long word to repat . . .)
    paper width. The AMOUNT of air hitting the paper is, of course,
    equally important as the air speed, when it comes to pushing the
    paper away from the face.

    2) I also notised that, when whistling the higher pitches, the air
    beam hits the paper at a lower level, closer to the floor. This will
    mean that the leever that the paper represents in this situation
    will be a longer one than when you´re whistling the lower notes,
    where the air beam hits the paper on a level higher and closer to
    the roll. A longer leever will, of course, result in a "pushing force"
    being able to do a more efficient job.

    When i last night tried my own experiment, the result was that the
    paper was less pushed out at higher buzzing pitches. Since I tried to
    remain air pressure at a constant level, this is what shoul happen
    according to the physical laws. Higher pitch means smaller apperture,
    and since the pushing depends on both air speed AND amount of air,
    this will be very consistant: smaller apperture simply means smaller
    amount of air, while air speed at the lip cross section will remain the
    same as long as presure is. Air speed at other cross sections inside the
    mouth will of course go down since the amount of air leaving the lips has.

    Try the newpaper test. Also, whistle a low note, hold your hand in front of
    your lips so that the air beam hits your finger tops. Now change to a high pitch.
    Don´t you also find that the air beam now is hitting the palm of your hand instead
    of your finger tips? Come back and tell us what you find!

    By the way; this is SOO FUN, don´t you think!?!?!?:thumbsup:
  5. D_MaN

    D_MaN New Friend

    Apr 11, 2008
    Bendigo is about 2 hours from melbourne.
    I do have a teacher who has gone through the air force band.
  6. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

    Jul 26, 2008

    That´s EXACTLY what you need, my friend!!:thumbsup:
  7. Markie

    Markie Forte User

    Jan 4, 2009
    Clarksburg, WV
    I did not notice a change in the air stream from low to high when using the air stram on my wrist or when I used a larger piece of paper.
    Also, when you increased the mass of the paper it should porportionally decrease the effects.
    Think of it this way. When you the wind blows fast enough, you can hear it, right? Also, as the sound of the wind's pitch goes high what does it mean? The wind is going faster. It appears we are in agreement that arching the tongue does effect the air speed in the way I stated earlier. Also, if you use the concept of shrinking of the oral cavity and learn where the notes are in your mouth "like whistling" you'll discover how effortless playing is. Then again, you are probably doing this already but maybe never thought about it at such a deep level. Yes discovery and harmless experimentation is great fun.
  8. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

    Jul 26, 2008
    Yes. Everything happens in a smaller scale, but I think
    I saw that that the effect was dimiuished, taking this
    into account . . .

    Not nescesarilly. A smaller cavity has a higher resonance frequency.
    When the wave movement is triggered in there, the resonance frequencies
    will be enhanced and the others will be killed. Triggering the wave movement
    in a smaller cavity can be done with air having the same old, slow speed.

    when the cross section between tongue and roof of mouth decreases, the speed
    will increase in this cross section. If this cross section becomes the smallest
    among all cross sections, the amount of air passing the system each second will
    be determined by this cross section together with the air pressure.

    Yes, Markie! I had the good fortune of getting a good teacher from the start.
    He tought me the art of anchor tongue and how to use it! A good teacher IS
    worth every penny!
  9. Markie

    Markie Forte User

    Jan 4, 2009
    Clarksburg, WV
    I always hated the term "anchor tonguing". I think Clarke came up with it but I'm not sure. It give the illusion that the tongue is anchored or "static" and does not move which as you know is incorrect. I think you'd agree that with anchor tonguing, equal air that's being passed through a cavity will speed up as the cavity gets smaller. Again I think we agree. We've just come to a single conclusion born from two opposites perspectives.
  10. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

    Jul 26, 2008

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