Valve Spring ???

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Rick14A4A, Jan 7, 2010.

  1. Rick14A4A

    Rick14A4A New Friend

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    Jul 29, 2008
    Texas
    Just thinking outloud here, but has anyone ever taken the spring out and stretched it ever so slightly in order to get just a little quicker response? If it is a stupid idea then say so, but I thought I would put it out there.
     
  2. Dave Mickley

    Dave Mickley Forte User

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    Yes, I have done it on older horns. if I needed to do it with a newer horn I would get new springs.
     
  3. Bach219

    Bach219 Mezzo Piano User

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    I stretched my valve springs out about a year ago and I have noticed a HUGE difference between my valves and my friend's valves. His valves are so smooth (I guess that's how they would feel if I hadn't stretched them out!) but, I can move my fingers so much more faster on his horn than mine...it's unbelievable! But I ordered a kit with springs and other stuff and it should be coming soon!

    Anyways, what I'm trying to get to here, is that, at the beginning you really are going to suffer with slow fingers but quicker responding valves. But in the long run, your fingers will become stronger and faster on the more smoother springs!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  4. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    If you make the valve action too light, they will bounce when returning to the open position. You don't want this happening because it affects the playability of the horn.
     
  5. a marching trumpet

    a marching trumpet Mezzo Piano User

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    Feb 11, 2009
    Murfreesboro, TN
    I like really strong springs, but my local tech ran out of the stronger springs. So he charged me for a standard spring and he took the regular ones and streched them. So, it works, but they eventually went down so I had to strech them again, just dont do it to much. :play:
     
  6. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    Stretching is temporary. Better to get new springs, they're not expensive.
     
  7. MFfan

    MFfan Fortissimo User

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    I have stretched springs on my old horns (all are old) and gotten good results. On my well used Besson 609 I got early in 2009 , the installed springs were much too stiff for me, not comparable to my other ones. I got some generic ones from thebandroom and have been happy with the valve action since.:thumbsup:
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    We need a metallurgist here. The tensile strength of a spring is based on material, thickness and the tempering of the wire. Stretching the spring does make them harder to push down. I have not read anyware that then they move "faster" though.

    I have stretched springs on older horns to get more life out of them. Faster action has always been a function of regularly cleaning the valves and pushing them down with the tips of my fingers. If I needed to stretch a spring, it was only an emergency measure. I then replaced them all shortly afterwards.

    I imagine to get more true tension in the spring, they would have to be heated/cooled in a specific way to give them the temper properties that years of use weakened.
     
  9. TotalEclipse

    TotalEclipse Piano User

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    Mar 2, 2005
    Brisbane in OZ
    Streching the spring gives it 'pre-load' which will give it a higher tension which in turn will make it return faster....but it requires a greater effort to push it down so the speed you make up on the up-stroke is lost on the down-stroke.
    As said above on older horns that spares are not available streching does work.
    On my newer horns I usually strech or over compress new springs to 'tune' them to suit what I like.
    There is no reason (except for money) that you cant have springs custom made to the tension of your chosing from the outset.....You just need to order 1000 of them.
     
  10. StoporIlltoot!

    StoporIlltoot! New Friend

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    Jan 7, 2010
    Cincinnati, OH
    As previously mentioned, the stretching of springs is at its very best a stop-gap measure. I've done it a few times on both enclosed and bottom-loaded springs, but the results were never anything I would be satisfied working with in the long term. Nomatter how carefully you stretch it, the coil gaps are never evenly distributed, and the rarely maintain a 90-degree angle. Aside from having to fight this with your fingers, it could incrimentally change the wear patterns of the valve over time. By stretching the spring, the proportional limit of the of the spring is altered, as is the stress/strain ratio.

    The standard cylindrical springs are available from WWandBW - you have a choice of either the Allied Music brand (cheapest) or the Conn-Selmer brand (with higher markup, naturally.) If you prefer barrel-shaped springs as I do, I believe "The Bandroom" sells those. Also, if you really want to go the extra mile, it might be a good time to evaluate the valve guides. If your valves move anti- or clockwise within the casing, the guide has likely "tracked" and is not rendering proper valve alignment. If you play a Bach, the nylon guides are available from WWBW. If you play another brand or are interested in brass guides, the only source I am aware of at this moment is Kanstul. Some of the other members may know of specialty shops (Brass Bow?) that carry them in multiple models. When I install new springs, I apply a light coat of Lubriplate on the ends of the springs to cut down on break-in noise. For the gun guys out there, this is the same lubricant the armorer's manual prescribes for the M-1 Garand and M-14.

    I'm not a metallurgist...but it seems that materials science seems to be more discussed these days than heat treatment in spring production. The standard copper springs we are accustomed to now are ancient technology, and I really wonder sometimes exactly WHY they are still industry standard at this point (other than cost, of course.) I am currently on a mission to source some sort of pre-oxidized or coated Music Wire (ASTM A228) in the proper specification. It doesn't need to be shot-peen or heat treated because the cold-drawing process, which I imagine would raise the price on other materials. I don't know of any other readily-available materials that operates at higher tensile strengths in a valvespring diameter.

    http://www.centuryspring.com/pdfs/techfaqs.pdf
     

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