Valve Trombone

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by surfingmusicman, Dec 28, 2011.

  1. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    If you now are learning the Bb tenor trombone from a Bb tenor trombone music book, you will not have to transpose. However, if you pick up a church hymnal and want to play your trombone with notes that are in the bass clef along with a piano or organ, you certainly will have "to transpose on the fly" or as I say such "sight read", but such is the same transposition method as if I wanted to play my Bb trumpet with notes from the hymnal in the treble clef.

    Either on Bb trumpet or the Bb trombone, the transposition from C instrument music (concert key) is a snap. First, change the signature of the C instrument music by adding 2 sharps, each sharp negating a flat if they exist in the key the C music is written in. Once this is done, you then just play 2 half steps higher, as example a B would become a C# and it doesn't matter as there is no difference whether you are playing a Bb trumpet or Bb trombone. The method is the same!

    NO, you cannot use a trumpet mpc to play your trombone or vice versa ... their shanks are NOT the same. Even if you had custom mpcs made, you must expect the tone to be different. I did recently acquire one of Ivan's Holton cornets with modified receiver to accept a trumpet mpc, and the change in tone is still something that is difficult for me to be familiar with.

    PS: I've been transposing piano music (concert key music) since near the time I acquired my first trumpet in public school. Mainly such was all that was then available to me during the tail end of WWII and too was mostly from my Mother's and Grandmother's collections. I now have the remnants of their collections, inclusive now of some of the pops of the 50s I bought for my Mother. Added to such, is that I've scrounged from estate sales and thrift stores, each at costs as low as a nickel. Sadly, most is still in still in unpacked boxes we brought here in 2008 as are not archival acid free. I just hope the yard bag liners that I sealed will help preserve them. One of my prized recordings is my multi-brass instrument renditions of 2 of my Mother's "show off" piano songs, "Red Wing" and "Under The Double Eagle". Yeah, Mom played piano as well as a Pro IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  2. kcmt01

    kcmt01 Mezzo Forte User

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    I would suggest trying a baritone. It's Bb, just lower pitch, so the transposing is the same as trumpet. They come in two configurations; saxhorn style like a miniature tuba, or marching style, that looks like a cornet on steroids. The marching style horns usually go pretty cheap on ebay.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  3. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Yup, bass trumpets, baritones, euphoniums and trombones are all Bb instruments and all use the same mouthpiece. My euph is a saxhorn "hugger" style.

    My Yamaha Mellophone in F is a marching style like trumpet/cornet in lieu of a circular right hand French horn style. Noted that many Brit and Euro bands prefer the saxhorn style baritones/euphoniums as do I. Even my Yammy mello has a weight balance problem as seems to be causal of many cases of very painful carpal tunnnel syndrome in the left wrist, thus many American bands are now reverting to the saxhorn style, and indeed it is popular to support them in sacks, as also more tubas are now re-appearing in marching bands than formerly were Sousaphones.
     
  4. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    What? If the "Bb tenor trombone music book" is written in bass clef, the music will not be transposed. Trombone music is not transposed. It's concert-pitch bass clef, just like the bass part in a church hymnal or the bass-clef staff in piano music.

    Kingtrumpet, if you learn to read bass clef by learning what slide position equates to a given note on the staff, you won't be "transposing on the fly." You'll be playing the music the way you learned to play it.
     
  5. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    thank you -- I have been trying to convey that in some of my posts. Just like I have to transpose from Bb on the trumpet to correspond with the piano ---it's not a big deal --- I just cant transpose well "on the fly" ---- Yeah I have been playing a couple of notes each night on the bone, for 10 minutes or so. Local357, just said "take it easy on the bone, and no more than 10 minutes every other day or so for the first month"
     
  6. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Nieuwguyski, to an extent you may be right ... but only if when you see a B in the bass clef of a hymnal "equates" as you "learned to play it" in the C# position.

    The "catch point" about music as shows both treble and bass clefs is if the key signature is the same for both clefs, the music is written in concert key or as it would be for a piano. When such is so, you must certainly transpose for the Bb trumpet playing the treble clef and the Bb tenor trombone or any other Bb instruments. If you don't or won't transpose, you'll not get grades that you'd want to accept in a college instrumental music course or get hired for gigs. Yep, the trumpeters either transpose the hymnal if playing their Bb instrument or they play a C trumpet. Until just last year I did have and play a C tuba. You gotta do what you gotta do or go away.

    Yep, if the music is NOT specifically marked for a Bb trombone and is in the bass clef, the odds are that it is written in concert key as if for a piano or a C tuba, but would have to be transposed for any Bb, or BBb (Sousaphone) instrument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  7. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    Ed, I originally started on trombone when I was 10. My grades were just fine, and I've been hired plenty. I was taught to play second-line B in seventh position, because that's what note it is and that's how you play it. B on top of the staff is played in fourth position, again because that's what note it is and that's how you play it. And that's how I'd identify the notes, whether they were in a hymnal or a trombone part. I learned the valves in eighth grade -- low B is fingered 123, and B on top of the staff is fingered 12. That's just the way it is.

    It sounds like you learned bass clef with C trumpet fingerings, as I understand lots of classical cats do when learning clefs. I learned bass clef while playing Bb instruments, so that's how I think.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  8. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    Bass clef is *never* transposed. If you play BBb tuba, you play un-transposed bass clef. If you play CC tuba, you play un-transposed bass clef. If you play Eb tuba, you play un-transposed bass clef. You learn to play bass clef on whatever horn you're using. I know -- I've done it.
     
  9. coolerdave

    coolerdave Utimate User

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  10. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Kind of weird how YOU are playing, but I play my King Bb tenor trombone 2nd line B in bass clef in 4th position and the B in the space just above the bass clef also in 4th position.

    Too, I play my Bb euphonium bass clef 2nd line with 2-3 valves while it is lippy between the B and C in the first space and first ledger line above also with 2-3 valves depressed.
    Such would also be the same for baritone, and valve trombone.

    However, such is for music already written and scored for the Bb instruments AND concurs with the Conn charts that I've mounted on the wall right in front of me.

    This will not work for the hymnals as the bass clef there is written and scored for a C instrument such as a piano or organ, and as such must be transposed for a Bb instrument viz the Bs become C#s and 2 sharps are added to the key signature, negating 1 for 1 any flats existing in the key signature, just as is the same principle applied for a Bb trumpet playing in treble clef.

    I don't know how old you are, but I'm 75 now and have been transposing piano (C instrument) music for Bb, and F instruments, for 64 years, BBb for 62 years, Eb (alto sax) for 34 years, and CC for 18 years.
     

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