Video shows how tongue is used for registers and dynamics

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by mhendricks, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. mhendricks

    mhendricks Pianissimo User

    Video shows how tongue is used for registers and dynamics

    This is a fascinating video that reveals to you how the
    tongue is used to create air pressure in the oral cavity to
    enable a brass player to play in different ranges and
    dynamic levels. And how the tongue works in single and
    double tonguing too!

    See it at: http://mphmusic.com/blog/video/tongue-elevations-in-brass-playing-via-mri

    As always, my best to you --

    Mark Hendricks
     
    Brassman64 likes this.
  2. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    An interesting video, however I am not sure about tongue arch controlling pitch, from my own experiments and measurements the controlling factors are aperture size and the pressure behind it.

    Moving the tongue does not alter the pitch, easy to try oneself, play a note and hold at constant dynamic, move the tongue anywhere in the mouth and the pitch does not change until it reaches the roof of the mouth and the air is cut off.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  3. seilogramp

    seilogramp Piano User

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    This shows Sarah Willis, french horn with the Berlin Philharmonic. It is very interesting, but I would like to see more samples before any conclusions are made. Any others out there?
     
  4. mhendricks

    mhendricks Pianissimo User

    The tongue elevation creates a higher and lower air pressure, thus helping the player move through the registers while playing.
     
  5. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    But it also cuts down and thins the sound I noticed. This tongue is not necessary to achieve this task on air flow. More recently I have been "spooning" it back when playing higher and push more air flow with abdominal muscles, and this has really opened up my high range sound.
     
  6. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Sorry, duplicate post. Must have been double tonguing.
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Moving the tongue does NOT automatically change pressure. The sides of the tongue do not create a seal which would be necessary to use the "thumb over the water hose" analogy.

    Currently I am researching something that I used to at least partly not believe in. What does change when our tongue arches is the resonance of our oral cavity. Assume that it is desirable for the resonance in front of and behind the lips to achieve some kind of equilibrium, changing the resonance of the oral cavity could help the lips in this case. There is a great amount of interaction between blow, pressure, muscle tension, fine motor behavour of the face muscles and perhaps resonance. To me it is clear that we change pitch using multiple functions. Air pressure is a part and can be controlled by lip tension. To appreciably help with the pressure side, the tongue would have to constrict the airflow more than the aperature of the lips. I find this to be unlikely. The resonance theory would explain thin to thick tone, why a "relaxed" embouchure gives us more flexibility and range of color (it could then react to the microscopic effects).

    This is only conjecture. We used to have a member Sabutin who went a big step further comparing the oral cavity resonance to the multiphonic behaviour of the digeridoo. I am not sure that I would go this far, but it for sure is worth investigating.

    We cannot forget that we have been preached to about tongue arch for centuries. It would not be the first thing to fall over after mythbusters got ahold of it.........
     
  8. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    Oral cavity resonance would be an interesting study to investigate. Dig playing I think has little in common with the trumpet, the length/bore ratio is wrong making a low Q device that does not have clear resonances/slots.

    Tongue arch I believe is an attempt to equate change in pitch whistling where the oral cavity volume is reduced to the trumpet.

    I can move my tongue all over my mouth to the point where the air is cut off providing I keep the oral pressure constant the pitch does not change.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  9. TrumpetMD

    TrumpetMD Fortissimo User

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    It is very easy to jump to conclusions when reviewing scientific data. It's done all the time. Often, what data shows us is very narrow. And what the data does NOT tell us is usually what is most interesting.

    - The video only shows an "association" between certain oral cavity changes and changes in pitch.

    - The video does NOT show "causality" between oral cavity changes and changes in pitch.

    - The video does NOT measure changes in air pressure or other factors (some of which were mentioned by Rowuk), which may be associated with changes in pitch.

    - The video is limited to a single person, and a two-dimensional view.

    - The video does NOT provide evidence that emulating these oral cavity changes will result in more efficient changes in pitch.

    Mike
     
  10. TrumpetMD

    TrumpetMD Fortissimo User

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    I had you pegged as a spooner. ;-)

    Mike
     
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