Violin study

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Pisarenko, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. Pisarenko

    Pisarenko New Friend

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  2. turtlejimmy

    turtlejimmy Utimate User

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    I would say that is a study that is not much of a study ..... I wouldn't draw ANY conclusions from such a puny, random test. Doesn't mean a thing.

    Bring them all over to my Ex's house .... She'll tell you which is the great old violin and which is the newer one. A good musician (even blindfolded) should easily be able to tell which one is old by FEEL ALONE. The old ones feel old to the touch. Probably, the "professional musicians" (who weren't named) don't own older violins. My ex does. Send them to her, she'll straighten it out.:lol:

    Seriously, a couple of players "blindfolded" :roll: and a couple of old violins and a few new ones does not make any sort of conlusive test. I give it a big thumb's down.:thumbdown:


    Turtle
     
  3. SteveRicks

    SteveRicks Fortissimo User

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    This is very interesting. Humorously, I wondered how many famous violins they lost with the experimenter in welding goggles trying to hand the violin to the player in goggles (would be a good skit for Saturday Night Live).

    Having only had about 5 hours experience on violin40 years ago, I assume their was no way for the players to "tell" which they had. On trumpet, there are all types of clues ranging from the weight, balance, valve block location, to saddles, rings, etc., though a good research design could control for such variables. Actually, trying this on trumpet sounds like a good thesis for someone.


    Hey, all of those that have been saying the Ambassador is a pro horn -here is your evidence :) -by the way I like the Ambassador.

    Flip side is what am I going to do with all of these expensive horns I have bought thinking they were better?
     
  4. turtlejimmy

    turtlejimmy Utimate User

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    That's really true, Steve. Many clues on trumpets .... But a top professional violinist should be able to tell by feel. C'mon, that's 300 year old wood compared to freshly cut and manufactured wood. I'd call my Ex and ask her what she thinks, but we're not speaking right now. :dontknow::-(

    Also, if there is some truth in the test (probably is), they should NAME by manufacturer, the newer, inexpensive violins that supposedly sounded as good as the Strads. Why have a test at all unless you can then put out some useful information???

    And, just because they are "professional musicians" doesn't mean that they hear that well. Not all professional musicians have great ears. Re-do the test with others and probably other results will be reached. Also, there's a considerable amount of personal taste involved with pros.

    And, for another point, they are comparing relics (that cost millions) with ................... WHAT???? They don't say. Considerably less expensive can easily mean that the violins they compared to the old ones cost $250,000 or more. That's still "considerably less expensive" than the Strads. That's because the Strads are all relics.

    They could even be Eastman violins (the new ones). Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth if a CHINESE violin stomped an old Italian master's???


    Turtle
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  5. SteveRicks

    SteveRicks Fortissimo User

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    Good point. I think it would be very hard to hide one of the older violins. I work in the sciences and would enjoy reading the study. Just from my herd, I know there are differences or I wouldn't have a herd.
     
  6. turtlejimmy

    turtlejimmy Utimate User

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    I think it would be great if they could do a more extensive test or testing ... But, like the study says, it's not easy to get these expensive old violins in the same place at the same time. Probably, more of them are in storage than are actually being played (the Strads). A real test .... with a large panel of "experts", listening to MASTER violinists .... let's say Conductors and composers as well as violinists .... Would be excellent. I think that, even non-classical musicians would be at least a little bit interested in that. They could sell tickets. :dontknow:

    I'm trying to put together, in my cousin's recording studio, a small pile of trumpets and a professional player (not me, but my friend Frankie Hernandez), for a "Name the Trumpets" thread in here.

    When I get my Conn 8B Artist back from a valve rebuild .... I'll have these for a test:

    '56 Olds Recording
    '63 Conn 8B Artist
    '78 Getzen Severinsen
    '56 Conn 10B Coprion (Stella)
    '09 Eastman 420g

    A really well recorded test like that would actually give me a lot of good information about my own trumpets (he's a great player, I'm just a developing one). Plus, Frankie has a few trumpets, not sure yet what they are .....


    Turtle
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  7. turtlejimmy

    turtlejimmy Utimate User

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    First of all, I think that the person (people) doing the evaluating of trumpet sounds, should not be the person playing it. As we know, trumpets sound different out front, not the same with violins.

    Second, tickets should be sold to defray the cost of beer.


    Turtle
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I spoke with a young virtuoso about this a couple of years ago.

    Simone Zgraggen

    She said that the modern fine violins can have a superior balance compared to the Stradivari, but that the older axes have a particular superior aspect. The construction of the violin is essentially unchanged for the last 300 years because it was optimized back then and optimal resonance compared to pitch can't be significantly improved anymore.

    My personal opinion is that trumpets are different. I think that the development is far from mature and that there is still lots of room for improvement. Perhaps the old Bessons that Bach copied could be considered a milestone, maybe even a Committee or Mount Vernon Bach. It is hard to say, resonance, intonation, response are still traits that prove elusive in mass production.
     
  9. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

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    I rather think that there is still a fair amount of scope in new materials - some of the harder, lighter, alloys of titanium and alumninum and some of the stainless steels - perhaps even ceramics - could be interesting materials. Dave Monette and Jason Harrelson are well into the work with their balanced constructions of trumpet and mouthpiece, and design criteria based on "standing wave" technology. Yamaha have done a whole series of Sousaphones in plastic, and we probably haven't seen much in the area of carbon fibre reinforced materials either. Certainly the PBone (plastic trombone) has relatively good sound (for the price) - I reckon we haven't seen anything yet.
     
  10. patkins

    patkins Forte User

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    I don't think we'll ever see a perfect trumpet, no more than we'll ever see a perfect trumpet player. Great? Yes. As far as invention goes I believe there is the possibility of improvement. I think that to some degree a player has to match to the trumpet, more than a violin would.
     

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