What do you guy's think of a Rimless Bell????

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Nov 22, 2008.

  1. nordlandstrompet

    nordlandstrompet Forte User

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    Seems like you have got a lot of good ideas from both Harrelson and Taylor.
    They are both well known as excellent builders and artists.

    Good luck with your projects.
    Keep us informed.

    All the best.
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The rim is not just there to make the bell more durable. It is another parameter for the designer to use to change the sound.

    There are certain types of materials and temper that would not work sonically without the bead.

    The rimlessness says nothing about the playing qualities of the instrument. I would not buy one UNLESS I played it first in the type of acoustic space that I intend to use it. The same goes for any other "exotic" design. There is simply too much at risk (like your money and satisfaction)!
     
  3. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Well would not the rimless or beadless design be the origanal manner in which bells where made? As I understand it while the bead has been with us for 100 year's it was not the origanal design. So if it is their to produce a sonic effect what effect does it produce in particular? In what manner does it improce the sound ie timber,projection,slotting etc......How does it go about produceing this effect? I am trying to understand since all of this is hard to learn about!
     
  4. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Oh and I have to agree but I would say that anyone buying a trumpet higher up the food chain then a student model should play it before they buy it. You do not test drive one car and then buy a different one! You test drive the one you want to buy. Same thing with trumpet's! Now if you are sending a trumpet off to be modified you had better be ready for anything you get back since their is no way of knowing what the end effect will be! Part of modification is the unknown sound that is waiting to arrive. In fact it is like playing turn of the century vintage trumpet's unlike today's where they are all easy to play and have almost no personality the old vintage trumpet's had a lot of personality that the musician had to learn to use to his advantage because it was what it was. Each trumpet was it's own beast.The killer sound that so many like on vintage horns is their because they are not sonicly perfect or even close to it. They where designed by rule of thumb and trail and error not computer computations. The materials varied a lot from lot to lot and most of the work if not all of it was still done by hand not machine. All of these factor's let some gremlins intot he horn that made it different from Bob's sitting next to you.

    In fact I can pick up a Xeno,Strad 180-37,Getzen 3001Vax and play the same piece of music with very little if any difference in how I play and it will sound identical to all but the most trained ear. Pick up a 1920 Gold plated Vega, A Mount Vernon Bach Strad, and a pre-1950 LA Old's Special and play the same piece and if you do not muscle those trumpet's around their is no way in heck you are going to get the same sound out of each of them their will be strikeing differences in how they sound especialy if you play a piece that cover's the entire register.

    So when I send a trumpet off to get it modified by a competent brasswind "smith" I like the sound of that I am wanting to get a unique sound and am willing to pput up with some quirk's! This is one reason I would not send in something like a mint Bach Strad or Xeno etc.......Instead I would send in a freat sounding student horn or an ebay basket case like a Getzen 300-400 with a crumpled bell but great in every other way. The idea being I am not just saveing a trumpet from the trash bin but I am also getting something I could not buy that is unique and has it's own personality.

    I think that if someone things how that modifing a trumpet is the best route to go to get the sound you want they are not thinking clearly. If you have a specific sound you want it is better and probably cheaper in most case's to simply buy the trumpet you want. On the other hand if you want a sonic adventure and you are willing to work with the instrument modification can do some cool things for a trumpet. Obviously some modification in general have a known effect onthe end sound but their is always the exception. By the time you modify a trumpet and then decide you do not like it and pay to put it back to OEM you could have just bought the trumpet or cornet or flugel you wanted to buy in the first place and been ahead.

    I see this with a lot of things from firearm's to car to airplanes!! Modification is costly and does not always accomplish what you wanted or even if it does not always to the measure you expected. In general I normaly tell people to leave their daily driver type things like their main trumpet, their main car their two way amature radio alone since seldom is the modification they have in mind worth the potential problems cost and gained functionality. Your back up vechile, your back up trumpet, your back up electronics are fair game though since they are not mission critical.
     
  5. veery715

    veery715 Utimate User

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    It seems, lovevixen555, that after seeking our opinion you are now trying to justify the mod you want to do. It's YOUR horn. Do what YOU want. We don't need convincing. You'll do as you wish whatever advice we give you.

    I am not trying to sound mean. Sorry if I come off that way. Please let us know how it turns out.
    veery

    My backup vehicle goes only in reverse. I drive it to see where I've been.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2008
  6. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    You do realize that valves are honed to very small tolerances. Building up the flash copper plate and then nickel plating it is only one part. Once you build up the plating you then have to hone the pistons back down to the size of the valve casing. You need very precise equipment to be able to do that properly. I doubt you have the machinery required to do that in your backyard...especially since most shops don't do it themselves.
     
  7. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    No I am not justifying anything I am merly stateing my opinion. I think a lot of people have some preconcived notion of what they are going to get back after a modification! I think it is silly when you messing with a product at presnickity as a musical instrument to think that it will automaticaly sound like you dreamed it would! As to the rim or timless debate I have not decided yet. I just want to understand why something produces a certain result. I am not a mindless robot that just does what I am told I like to make intelligent decisions and to do that one has to know why something works not just that it work's. Since almost no one that is against it has ever played a rimless their opinion does not carry much weight! If someone tells me somethign is so they had better be able to tell me why. I do not think that is asking a lot since I would ask the same thing of a math teacher, chemistry teacher, automechanic etc........

    In the end it does not matter one way or the other since I am not the snobish type and I do not play for a liveing just for a hobby. Just because it is a hobby though does not mean I want to be ignorant of what makes a trumpet sound the way I want it to sound or why they do certain things like bead the edge of the bell. If it about certain sonic effects do you not think that all of use should know what it does and why we want that effect? Same thing fgoes for the materials we should understand what makes a good trumpet and what is just their for looks or durability. For instance the all the sleves that my tuning slides go into on my Reynolds Medalist are Nickle Silver. Do these add tot he sound quality or are they just their so dis-simalar metals do not experince electrollasis and get stuck together? Does a weighted valve bottom cap really change sloting and timber for the audience or just the musican's feed back? Could we have some digatal spectrum analysis to prove that it has an effect or is their nothing more then one musicians opinion. This site is big on opinion but low on science. How come I can not find reading material on instrument design and brass repair????

    Since I do not know everything I love to bounce idea's off my peer's and when it comes to trumpet's that means other trumpet player's! Why so I can get their take on an idea both good and bad and their experinces with various products. If I played a different trumpet every day of the year I could not play every model of trumpet ever made by a long shot. I would venture to say that some of the best trumpet's ever built where built where built by companies that have long since been forgotten by many of us.

    In terms of repair and modification where else should I go to ask questions??? A forum for automotive repair info really would not answere the type of questions I have. As to advice just because someone gives their opinion or advice does not mean that the person is going to follow it!!! If someone has had good results though with a repair facility that means more to me then all the advertiseing inthe world.

    I have not even decided which trumpet I am going to have modified yet??? I will probably pick up a basket case from ebay. Nothing like putting a $325 bell on a $29 trumpet!!!LOL or How about a Frumpet???LOL If you see some guy on youtube in his 30's rocking out to some groovy Jazz on a Frumpet with a copper bell that is just me!!LOL
     
  8. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Yes, I understand it. I work on competition rifles, pistols, electronic's and car's. I am preety sure if I can chamber a rifle, rebuild and engine and transmission and align sophisticated elctronics I can handle a valve job. It just so happens I have a multi-axis mill, a lathe and all kinds of measureing and diagonstic tools. While I have no training in brasswind repair I understand it all. In fact my first three year's at college I was an Aviation Technology/Applied Science Major but they did away with my major so I had to scramble and change to somethign else so I could graduate on time since I hated college. I was not about to transfer and lose 1/2 my credit's after three year's some I am much more mechanical then the average business major. I understand that first I have to straighten out the case bore's and measure them and then plate with copper then nickle then lap them to spec... It really is third world technology and not that hard to do when you stop and think about it. Oh I also forge my own knifes and make some of my own tools. You can actualy scrape metal to .0001 tolerance just useing scrapeing.

    One of the things that I dislike about the modern time we live in is that everyone thinks everything is beyond them and that they have to be an expert at something to do it. While their is a lot to be said for reading a book and trying something for yourself. I am not going to do this on a $3000 Bach Strad I am talking about learning to do this on a $30 trumpet that most would toss in the trash. Low compression only effect the lower register. I have very little to lose when you look at the fact that anything is an improvement over how it is right now.

    Just so you know I came from a smart but poor family. When the TV would break my Dad would go to the Army library and checkout a book on TV repair. He would read and learn and then after figureing out was was wrong with the TV he would buy the part and make the repair. Same thing went for car's and anything else. My wife can's fruit's, vegtables, we hunt fish,make our own candles and soap etc........I am no better then any other man or woman on this site in terms of natural ability. I am hower very exploratory and very hands on and I love to do things myself if I can do a good job at what ever I want or need to do. I have found that if someone has the desire to learn and is whileing to take more chance then the average person their is nothing that they can not learn to do from home improvment, flying a plane to trumpet repair it is all about learning and doing and takeing some risk! Most people would rather just pay an expert to do something for them and that is fine nothing wrong with that it is just not how I like to live. I am sure we have all seen bad repairs that where just bad in every way and that is not the type of work I am talking about doing.

    In fact Ihave an uncle that builds airplanes from scratch. You would not be able to tell by looking at his aircraft that they where not turned out in a factory devoted to building aircraft. The barrel manufacture I prefer to use for my competition rifles owns a hard ware store and he started out makeing his own barrels and doing his own gunsmithing. Now he is one of the top manufacture's of competition rifles and barrels. He has no formal training as an engineer or machinest all self taught! The Broklyn Bridge was designed and built by a self educated man that never set a foot in a formal school be it public school or University he was completly self taught! Most of your great inovations in technology come out of peoples basements not large corperations. The wright brother's where bicycle repair men and builders yet they built and flew the first airplane. Henry Ford's first vechile was built in a tool shed infact he had to take part of the shed apart to get his car out because it would not fit through the door to this tiny tool shed.The Vitenamease where building copies of our 1911 pistols with nothing but hand file's and a part to look at no blue prints or machines etc..........
     
  9. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

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    Wow. Not quite sure what you're going off about, but I thought this was simply a thread about rimless bells (which I think are very cool). I appreciate the point(s) about self-reliance, but the time, money, and effort it would take for me to build a great custom horn would FAR exceed the time, effort, and expense of purchasing one from a professional. If I was in the market for an airplane I might seek out your uncle, but he peobably wouldn't be able to help me out with my glass-blowing hobby. Please think of the expression "jack of all trades, master of none" when tryong to accomplish too much.

    And by the way, the Brooklyn Bridge was designed and built by John Roebling. "John attended the public schools of Gymnasium in Mühlhausen (at the age of 14 John passed the examination for the title of Master Builder or "Baumeister"), Realschule in Erfurt. Recognizing his intelligence at a young age, Roebling's mother, Friederike Dorothea Roebling secured enrollment for him at the Royal Polytechnic Institute in Berlin where he studied architecture and engineering under Rabe and Sluter, bridge construction and foundation construction under Dietleyn, hydraulics under Eytelwein, languages, and philosophy, graduating in 1826 with a degree in Civil Engineering. Additionally, Roebling studied under famous German philosopher Georg Hegel. Roebling became Hegel's protege, and completed a 2000 page treatise on his concept of the universe."

    (taken from Wikipedia)
     
  10. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    pretty bell! can we see the rest of the horn?
     

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