What impact does Bore really have ?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Masterwannabe, Sep 26, 2009.

  1. guyclark

    guyclark Piano User

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    Actually, a typical rotary trumpet has a "small" bore only because the valve cluster is much closer to the mouthpiece than a typical piston trumpet. Since the standarized point of measurment of a horn is at the second valve slide, clearly, in a conical shaped bore, if that point is up close to the mouthpiece receiver as it is in traditional rotaries, it's going to measure smaller than if it were moved to where the second valve would be (proportionally) on a piston trumpet. I would guess that a better measurement point (for comparison purposes) on a rotary would be at the side of the tuning slide nearest the bell.

    I don't know why I've never measured there before. :dontknow: I should try it sometime! Anybody got rotary and calipers handy?

    Guy Clark
     
  2. mchs3d

    mchs3d Mezzo Forte User

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    Well, I don't think I'm sold yet. Bore size has to have some effect. I mean, why does a trombone have a larger bore than a trumpet? Or, why does a piccolo trumpet have a smaller bore than a b-flat?
     
  3. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

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    To contribute to the rotary discussion: it is well known, that a good receipt for a dark/mellow sound is relatively tight (or if you want small bore) leadpipe and slow flare bell with relatively large diameter.

    To mchs3d: The point is, that difference between large bore, medium bore and small bore is quite small. When you talk trombones, the difference between large and small bore is much more significant, which is one of the reason to have more impact on sound and playability. Piccolo trumpet and trombone are essentially different instruments and bore sizes are just one of the essential variables.
     
  4. guyclark

    guyclark Piano User

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    Bore needs to be somewhat proportional to the length of the instrument. Thus, a tuba will have a much larger bore than will a piccolo trumpet.

    Guy Clark
     
  5. mchs3d

    mchs3d Mezzo Forte User

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    Ok, I understand that aspect now. I am just curious as to why most American orchestra guys prefer to play Bach Large bore C trumpets. Do they design the large bore to be more "free-blowing" by changing more than just the bore size? I mean, the truth is that when I play a large-bore, regardless of what my intuitions are, it really has less resistance than a ML or smaller. I'd love some input from guys who have actually worked in shops building these things. Thanks!
     
  6. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    I play a Conn 5A Victor cornet with a .485 bore, about the same size as a small-bore trombone. There's quite a large transition from the small cornet receiver through the leadpipe to that big bore, and I think that may be where much of the big, rich tone comes from. The horn is a cannon, and I love the way it plays. I can't tell it needs more air or breath support than a regular bore horn, as long as I use a mouthpiece with a throat in the standard 26-27 range. When using a traditional cornet mouthpiece with an 18 or 20 throat, I have to provide more resistance or I run out of breath too easily, but that's more of a function of an open mouthpiece.

    In addition to playing a C trumpet with a large bore, the hot setup on C is a mouthpiece with a larger throat and more open backbore. This basically makes the C play more like a Bb, which is a more familiar "feel " to many players. Personally I play a ML bore C trumpet and like it just fine.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2010
  7. guyclark

    guyclark Piano User

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    Honestly, just beween us? :roll: I think alot of it is conservatism. Tradition. "So-and-so plays a Bach large bore C trumpet, so I will, too". :cool:

    I know I get funny looks when I play with a group for the first time (Ok, I get funny looks alot, anywhere! :dontknow: ) because I play Yamaha rotaries for most things. I'm told that all in all, I sound pretty much the same on whatever horn I play, but it's that visual of me with the "sidewinder" that means I'm not going to fit in, to a lot of people, alas! :shock: Somehow people get the idea that because I play a particular type of horn that is different from others, I'm not going to match, and then they're suprised when everything works out just fine! It's just prejudice and tradition.

    I own a variety of instruments, and none of the differences that I note between horns of the same type (Bb cornets of various sizes, for example) are attributable to the bore size. This is particularly true for the Getzen Eterna Bb cornets that until recently my wife and I played in Brass Bands. Her original cornet is a medium large bore, and I got her another ML Eterna as a spare. My original Eterna cornet was a Large bore, so I bought myself a Large bore spare. In practice, she and I could pick up each other's horns and not notice any difference in the playing. I now play a Schilke XA1 cornet which as a ML bore according to the Schilke site. What I notice is how it fits in my hand and the valve action. The same sorts of comments can be made about our other horns and the lack of obvious bore size effects.

    I'd say, try a bunch of horns, and choose the one that plays the best for you in the situation you want to play it, and don't worry about bore size.

    That said, I'm looking forward to trying a neighbor's Schilke X4 extra large bore Bb trumpet next week. I want to see if it has any discernable differences from my prior Bb trumpet experience that can be explained by it's extreme bore. What I'm hoping for is a piston valve experience similar to what I get from my Yamaha rotary Bb (YTR-935). :thumbsup:

    That's what I think!:lol:

    Guy Clark
     
  8. mchs3d

    mchs3d Mezzo Forte User

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    That is interesting. If this is true, then I pretty much rest my case. However, I am still a little unsure about why my "Large Bore" Bach B-flat had too little resistance. Does anyone know what additional changes they might make to decrease resistance? See, my logic simply was that a "bigger tube" requires more air. I mean, if the trumpet were a hose, it would take more air per cubic inch, and therefore less PSI. However, a trumpet is not a hose, it is a complicated vibrating system, so that makes things a lot more difficult to comprehend.
     
  9. tpsiebs

    tpsiebs Piano User

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    Look at the gap in the receiver between the mouthpiece and the actual lead pipe. I had a large bore Strad with a copy of a JBS "gap reducer" - it allowed various gaps for various situations. In your case, increasing that distance could have increased turbulance/resistance. PM me and I can tell you more in detail.
     
  10. guyclark

    guyclark Piano User

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    HI, Guys!
    I actually remembered to try measuring one of my rotary's bore size when I got home from an orchestra rehearsal last night. :thumbsup:

    I measured the bore of one of my Yamaha YTR-935 Bb rotaries at both the second valve slide and the bell end of the tuning slide (where I proposed earlier that the second valve would have been on a piston trumpet).

    I was rather suprised to find that, at least on this model horn, the bore size is identical there to that measured at the second valve slide: 10.90mm which converts to 0.429". :-o That would suggest a smaller actual bore than I'd expected. Yet, it feels quite large and free-blowing, one of the reasons I'm interested in trying the Schilke X-4!

    I should try measuring a couple of my other horns, and see if this holds true for them as well! Color me VERY suprised!! :oops:

    Guy Clark
     

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