What is the secret

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by gunshowtickets, Mar 4, 2016.

  1. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    Heart of Dixie
    How about National Emblem, everyone's favorite Sousa march that he didn't write? :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U40OIESDwlU

    Sousa did list it as one of the top 3 best marches of his era, even if he didn't write it.
     
  2. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    There are three tricks to getting that British cornet sound:

    1) Get yourself an old Besson with a big bell, or a good copy

    2) Get yourself a Denis Wick 2 mouthpiece

    3) Get staggering drunk, stand outside when it's freezing out in just your underwear, and let the cold to the rest. The vibrato will take care of itself.
     
  3. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Probably worth pointing out that the large bore cornets are a fairly recent introduction. I think it's safe to say that the recordings of the cornet legends prior to the late seventies - Jim Shepherd, Maurice Murphy, Willie Lang, Ken Smith, even early Phillip McCann - would be played on medium to medium large bore instruments: nothing larger than a 0.460" B&H Imperial.

    And probably quite a modest mouthpiece, too. The 'kitchen sinks' might be seen on 3rd cornet desk to give a bit of punch to the lower register, but the de facto standard Wick 4B is not a large piece (unless you play piccolo).
     
  4. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    In that department, it must be said that the player's physique has a lot to do with it.

    For example:

    I myself use very large equipment: Schilke 24, Bach 1, DW2 on cornet, DW1 and DW1X on certain trumpets. I play with a big, fat, marshal sound.

    And yet I've always been mystified and amazed at guys who get a big, fat sound using, say, something around a Bach 6C. What the- ?!

    There are aspects of embouchure that are poorly and improperly understood, and they have to do with details like skin elasticity, density, consistency and thickness, the connectivity (various tissue characteristics) between skin and the muscle underneath, the cellular texture and consistency of the skin, and so on.

    People suited to Monette equipment tend to have an extremely efficient embouchure, that vibrates and resonates easily and automatically. This is especially true of high-range players. Technically, you're playing the equivalent of the voice's falsetto when you're up over the break, and players that can do that, especially those that understand that, have an easy time of it.

    The rest of the heap will often spend the rest of their lives wondering what they're doing "wrong", when in fact they can be doing everything right, and not be able to produce a natural falsetto. It's not a trick, there's no "knack" involved- it all comes down to your own personal equipment.

    Getting that classic cornet sound is akin to this. I can fool pretty much anyone into thinking (while blindfolded) that I'm playing cornet, when I'm actually playing a Bach Bb Strad trumpet with a big mouthpiece. In fact, there are plenty of trumpet players of yore who had a very cornet-like sound, probably because the cornet was everyone's first instrument back then. And part of the "trumpet" sound back then was how they were playing, and the type of sound they were aiming for. They were deliberately trying to divest themselves of that British Sally-Ann type of sound in the 1920's and 30's.
     
  5. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Lagos, Nigeria
    Really? So you sound like this?



    Because when Graham played trumpet, he didn't sound anything like a cornet.

    And how would I know that, you may ask. Well, I know you'll not have heard of him, but please feel free to read his bio here Members - Hunmanby Silver Band.

    Down at the bottom you'll see a testimonial. Copy a sentence or two and google it. See where he filched it from.

    Valse Brillante is my favourite of his solos for various reasons I won't bore you with. But here's one that might be more familiar.




    Still want to lecture me on what a classic cornet sound is? All the way from Sally-Ann-Saskatchewan? ;-)
     
  6. gunshowtickets

    gunshowtickets Forte User

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    Tidewater, VA
    So what of the Conn 2 1/2 bore from around 100 years ago?
    If I were a betting man, I'd say that was just for the power players back in the times sans amplification to be able to "blastissimo" their way in the world.

    For now, I'll keep messing with the 80A, but i want to test-drive a Stomvi Titan at some point.


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  7. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    Yes, i can get a sound like that out of a trumpet. Most of what you're hearing is style, not equipment.

    If Maurice was playing a big, large-bore horn, with a deep v-cup mouthpiece and a big vibrato, instead of a small-bore Eb with a small bell, that produces a toy-trumpet sound in the high register, you wouldn't be able to tell whether or not he was playing a cornet.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLDF8OeD-hc

    I've had this argument with guys lots over the years. I beat 'em every time when we do the blindfold test.

    A friend in Saskatoon has an old Besson (I have an old Besson too, and a Getzen Eterna), and a couple times we took our horns and some trumpets and fiddled and diddled around with equipment until we got a trumpet sound of out the cornets and a cornet sound out of the trumpets.

    The reason we did that was because we'd often heard of guys doing this, and we wanted to hear for ourselves.

    You wanna hear both instruments go from cornet to trumpet? There's a simple way. This is an old trick, lots older than I am. Play G above middle C open, then 1 & 3, and back and forth. Listen carefully. Whether it's a cornet or a trumpet has to do with ratios, nothing else. Trumpets are 65% to 35% cylindrical to conical, cornets are vice versa. When you play G open, the ratio is 65 to 35. When you use the 1 & 3 fingering, the ratio flips to something like 55 to 45.
     
  8. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    Heart of Dixie
    They are better than lamp material, but you didn't miss much by not buying it. I had a beautiful one a few years ago, but it played like a student horn - stuffy. I sold it with no regrets...

    [​IMG]
     
  9. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    The Chinese Jinbau Besson knock-off (also sold under the name Berkeley or Berkeleywind) is a pretty darned good horn. Excellent valves, good cornet sound. You could have knocked me over with a feather the first time I heard one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2TN--LMxo
     
  10. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Lagos, Nigeria
    These figures are meaningless unless you also specify the rate of flare, and where it flares.

    How do you classify tubing with a flare of 0.00001 degrees? Conical right? Except your 4.874" bell would be 200 miles from your valve block.

    'Cylindrical' IS CONICAL TUBING WITH A FLARE OF ZERO DEGREES!

    So it is NOT a question of whether it's cylindrical or conical, it is a question of HOW conical it is and WHERE.

    Sorry for the teenage-type capitalisations, but honestly, attempting to characterise a seriously complex geometry with one single number is as ridiculous as answering one clue and claiming to have completed the crossword.
     

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