What is the secret

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by gunshowtickets, Mar 4, 2016.

  1. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    Well, that's a silly argument. If you were to unravel a bunch of trumpets and cornets and lay them side-by-side, you'd see right off that they're one and the same instrument, with the same amount of conical and cylindrical tubing. The only difference is the mouthpiece-receiver and mouthpiece.

    Furthermore, there are trumpets out there that have a greater taper than many cornets, and vice-versa.

    And the conical tubing angle is meaningless if you're dealing with Cornopeans and old-model cornets that have more cylindrical tubing than either the modern trumpet or cornet. The instruments in question consist of sections of stepped tubing, which serves the same purpose as conical. Think about that a moment: cylindrical tubing that serves the same function as conical, in terms of sound.

    This means that you can't, and never could, point to the slope of the conical tubing as being a meaningful factor.

    I wish Cornopeans were more plentiful these days. They still turn up from time to time on eBay. Many of them have a great old-fashioned cornet sound. Yet they're roughly 50-50 in terms of conical vs cylindrical tubing, and the so-called rules of what makes for a cornet don't apply to them, any more than they apply to the old S-configured cornets, with mostly straight tubing.

    Look at the Cleveland cornet at the top of the page:

    http://www.horn-u-copia.net/display.php?sortby=&starton=0&selby=+where+maker="Cleveland"
     
  2. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Lagos, Nigeria
    Perhaps (in the sense that most sane folk will think it unimportant), but it is accurate. And it does blow your simplistic prejudices out of the water if you bothered to read it carefully.

    Btw the thread is about typical British brass band cornets so appealing to various obscure archaic and north American instruments to support your case cuts no ice with me. As far as cornets vs trumpets are concerned its Besson Sovereign 927 vs Besson Sovereign Studio. Both designed in the early eighties by Richard Smith and as different as chalk and cheese. No-one but a lunatic would claim that they were in any way interchangeable for anyone with even modest ability. I really don't think you have anything worthwhile to say about either do you?
     
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  3. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    Simplistic prejudices? S-shaped cornets were very popular at one time and were mostly cylindrical. Cornopeans were all there was in the cornet world at one time, and were 50-50 cylindrical to conical, yet both of the aforementioned had a very cornet-like sound. Yes, I read it over very carefully. I have read many publications on cornets over the years that make such claims. Such claims don't hold water, have never held water, because as erudite as they try to sound, and try to come across, they consist of cherry-picked details which, while they look good on paper, don't hold up in terms of the evidence.

    Anyone with a preference for any maker of brasswinds is making a fool of himself. "appealing to various obscure archaic and north American instruments to support your case" is patent UK bigotry, as has nothing whatever to do with facts or evidence.

    The brass band tradition in the UK ran parallel to the brass brand tradition in the US. Both began as company work bands in the early 1800's. Both consisted of parallel developments and competing instrument makers. Leopold Uhlmann of Vienna was contracted in both the US and the UK, making Saxhorns for one market and Dodworth brass for the other. So the patterns of influence and development, and the various patent offices, were pretty much equally in play, in the UK, in Europe, and in the US. So don't try to fob off any crap about British anything to me. Not when makers like Courtois, in France, were leading cornet development in the 1850's, when Henry Distin was leaving the UK at the same time and taking his outfit to the US, when companies like Besson and Courtois were marketing French instruments to the UK band market, which at the time was using old French-made Cornopeans. So much for your "British" cornet sound!
     
  4. Franklin D

    Franklin D Forte User

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    The Netherlands
    A lot of noise. I suppose gsmonks is right about the situation in 1850 but his statements have IMO nothing to do with nowadays reality.
    So it's time to revive a Dutch oldie:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwjEW66V-RM
     
  5. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Lagos, Nigeria
    I could just as easily have cited Yamaha's YCR-6335HS (Maestro) vs YTR-6335HS (Xeno). A first class 'British style' cornet and an equally outstanding 'French style' symphonic trumpet by anyone's standards. Country of origin is far less of an issue for me than you would wish. But the various crumpet hybrids and failed experiments of the past are irrelevant to this thread.
     
  6. mgcoleman

    mgcoleman Mezzo Forte User

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    Iowa
    Concur.
    Regarding brass band cornet sound and country of origin of the instrument, here's a highly unempirical comment:
    As a British-style brass bander (US-based...hence British-style), I am humbled to have received a couple comments about how nice my Besson 928 sounds, but also slightly amused.
    I play a Getzen 3850.
     
  7. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Lagos, Nigeria
    And why not. There's been a lot of good things said about the 3850 and it certainly looks the part.

    I notice that even Inderbinen are offering a BBB cornet now:

    [​IMG]

    A snip at just short of $6,000 :-)


    (though I'm not sure The Sound is something you can buy ;-))
     
  8. mgcoleman

    mgcoleman Mezzo Forte User

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    SWMBO wouldn't definitely NOT approve. Yow!
     
  9. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    A lot of "noise"? Facts are facts. And the "nowadays reality" is hardly immune to the facts. If you're trying to dismiss the facts as "noise", that speaks volumes. And not for the facts in question.

    Fact: it is possible to build a cornet, today or any other day (time does not change the facts), with all stepped cylindrical tubing, including the bell, that would play in tune and have an excellent cornet sound.

    I think some of your are forgetting, or simply don't know, what was going on in the cornet world back in the 1830's. In ca 1830, Jean-Hilaire Asté (aka Halary) invented the cornopean (aka cornet a pistons). The term "cornet a pistons" always leads to some confusion, as players naturally assume it's something like the modern cornet being referred to. But that instrument wouldn't come into being until two decades later.

    Lots of old-timers, when they came across cornopeans, referred to them as "old cornets".

    Cornopeans have a very good cornet sound. But most of you today have never heard one. They're also around 50% cylindrical vs 50% conical in terms of tubing, meaning they're about the same ratio as the rotary-valved Bb trumpet.

    In terms of cornets, if you go back to the early days, and wonder why there were so many different instruments, it's because players were having instrument-builders do personal custom jobs, which created a lot of variation in the instruments. Makers like Courtois often named the horns after the players: the Levy and Arbuckle models come to mind.

    Young guys were souping up cornets the way young guys were souping up cars (known as "speeders") in the 1920's and later. The modifications usually had something to do with whatever it was the guy in question was trying to show off: fast tonguing, high-range playing, lyrical playing, really fast playing, speed-jumping in register, you name it.

    They were playing circus music, not to put too fine a point on it. Guys like Herbert Clarke were playing in travelling tent shows across Europe and the US. You may have heard of Jenny Lind, aka "the Swedish Nightingale". She was a popular singer in this circuit.

    Now, if you think that the cornet sound was restricted to and only known in restricted pockets in the UK, you can forget that notion. The travelling tent shows travelled the world, and were like early television variety shows. Many of the same people played the Vaudeville circuit, which again was highly popular across North America and Europe.

    The instruments themselves were like a case of Alexander Graham Bell vs Elisha Grey. The same types of instruments got invented a number of times over in a good many diverse locations. Sax took the valved bugle and re-invented it into the family of modified valved bugles that bear his name- Saxhorns. But the same family of instruments appeared in the US, prior to 1844 (Saxhorn patent date), made by Allan Dodworth, and called Ebor Cornos, or New York Horns. They also appeared in Leipzig, made by Johann Joseph Schneider, who referred to his horns as Flugelhorns. They were also invented, at the same time as Sax, by Vaclav Frantisek Cerveny, whose horns are referred to as Baltic brass.

    Without getting into all the instruments referred to as "cornets", suffice it to say that the term "cornet" entails a type of sound, more than it refers to a specific instrument. Ergo, no one can make the claim that a particular instrument has that "classic cornet sound". Nor can anyone ascribe any particular location or nationality to that sound.

    The sound Brits refer to as "that classic British cornet sound" was the same sound to be found in US Salvation Army bands.

    In fact, much to do with the early Jazz Age in the US was to divest itself of a sound the players thought of as being old-fashioned and out of date. When Louis Armstrong was still playing cornet in Fate Marabel's band touring the Mississippi by river boat in the 1920's, newspaper articles mentioning him at the time often dismissed other players as sounding like "so many Salvation Army band musicians". Herbert Clarke didn't like it one bit when Armstrong took up the trumpet ca 1910, and tried to dismiss Armstrong and the Bb trumpet as "a European fad". His remark is telling, because his mention of Europe gives you some clue as to how widespread awareness of the Bb trumpet was at the time.

    Because the cornet pretty much bit the dust in the US by the 1930's, it fell out of memory as well as out of use. There is the false perception in people's minds today that the cornet is a British instrument. Which is complete nonsense. The instrument was just as popular in the US, just as well-known, and sounded just the same as its UK counterpart.

    Incidentally- I play a Yamaha Eb, C and Bb cornet. And Eb tenor horn and baritone. Not as dark as Besson equipment, but I prefer the sound because it's brighter. I've always used my old Besson for solos, though.

    But an old cornopean or Saxhorn gets just as good a sound. A cornopean maybe better.

    http://www.alsmiddlebrasspages.com/tenorhorn/images/history/cornet/sopsaxhorn.gif
     
  10. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    000
     

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