What makes a trumpet "classical?"

Discussion in 'Orchestra / Solo / Chamber Music' started by LaTrompeta, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. LaTrompeta

    LaTrompeta Forte User

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    A really good player isn't going to muscle any horn/mouthpiece combo. He/she knows that the best results come when they struggle the least with their equipment.

    I do believe that equipment makes a difference in sound. Why did people say that Bud sounded different on his Monette than on his Bach?
     
  2. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    It seems to me that Rowuk isn't disputing that different trumpets, in the hands of the same player, can sound different. As far as I can tell, he's simply saying that there are places for nearly any type of trumpet sound, from brash and bright to dark and veiled, within the world of "classical" music. That's why he plays so many different Bb trumpets -- not because he thinks they all sound the same, but specifically because they don't. If you handed him an Eric Miyashiro Yamaha he very well might immediately think of a "classical" piece he thought it would be great for -- and not because he could make it sound just like his Monette.

    And it seems to me that Trickg has a specific sound in mind as being most appropriate for "classical" music.

    I bought a Jupiter 1600i, thinking it would become my go-to lead trumpet. It never really worked for me on the bandstand, so I sold it. But if I did more quintet and/or concert band playing I probably would have kept it. But my concept of a "classical" sound probably isn't the same as Trickg's.
     
  3. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    In my hands with my shallower/commercial mouthpiece, my Jupiter 1600i has a ton of bright cut.

    This is not a classical sound. Part of it is my approach - I'm playing in a way that is naturally bright and cutting, and with a mouthpiece that facilitates it, but much of it is the horn.

    (sorry, I know I've posted these around the forum a bit, they are the only few live clips I have of me playing with this ensemble.)

    https://soundcloud.com/trickg/i-want-you-back-new-monopoly-live

    (Trumpet solo at 1:58)
    https://soundcloud.com/trickg/downtown-new-monopoly-live
     
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  4. Franklin D

    Franklin D Forte User

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    Maybe, of course a jazz performance can be well organized but jazz as a form is quite vague defined and there is no set of rules to judge it nor an authority to do that. For example, in a BBB you have to play a Besson and a Wick. But in jazz you can play a cornet with a 7C if you want that peculiar sound.
     
  5. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    Feel free to search my old posts -- I never said the 1600i was too dark to play lead on or anything of the sort -- it lights up just fine with a shallow mouthpiece. My issue with it was a lack of acoustic feedback -- something I believe you said you didn't have to deal with because you always have monitors in commercial situations. I play in a number of loud big bands where I have no monitor, and in those situations I couldn't hear myself on the 1600i: That's my only beef with the horn, and that's why I sold it.

    In quieter groups, including the college wind ensemble I sometimes sub in and a four-horn jazz combo, I never had a problem hearing myself with the 1600i and never felt like it was too bright or cutting for that kind of group (with a different mouthpiece).

    I've since sold the trumpet, but tell me: Was it the horn, was it my sound concept, was it because I'm a hack, or was it something else?
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Patrick,
    I love it when you get off on stuff like this. It shows that you know better, but aren’t as good at playing devils advocate... Your recent posts on the switch from the “commercial” Ingram to the “classical” Bach 37 document this.

    I will explain it for those that may not know. It is never the iron that causes the end result - it is purely the player. You can play equally well classically or jazzily with a broad spectrum of instruments. When I use different horns, it is not for Classically or Jazzily issues. It is not for dark or bright. My rotary trumpets change sound depending on register. For playing Wagner, Mahler or Brucker I prefer to leverage this “inconsistency” on this repertory that was the original intention of the composer - compared to the homogenised 20th century “Bach” sound. The stylistically secure player will end up doing the same things on all trumpets anyway. The different trumpets showcase articulation a bit differently.

    Switching mouthpieces also has nothing to do with classically or jazzily. I use the same “lead mouthpiece” for playing lead on a Bb horn or the Brandenburg/Richter or Molter concertos on the picc. I use the same “classical” mouthpiece when playing in the orchestra or 2nd, 3rd or 4th trumpet in a big band.

    I remember Adam Rapa getting really annoyed when his success was attributed to Monette trumpets. Certainly the switch to that brand got him “advertising” under the geeks - his style and work ethic were the reasons for his success - not the iron. If you close your eyes and listen to his recordings - before, during and after Monette, you will discover something important.

    I know that people would prefer to “buy their style”. It does not work that way. The prerequisite for classical and jazz is in the heart, not your hands. Any player that crosses a large majority of styles learns what to do and is VERY proud of their personal achievements - not the hardware that they bought.

    It is not the iron. That is an excuse for those without enough style.

     
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  7. LaTrompeta

    LaTrompeta Forte User

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    But, at the end of the day, you don't buy a 1600i for classical. If you buy a trumpet with the intent to play in the Philharmonie, you look for something rather specific. Not that you couldn't sound good on Mahler 5 with a 1600i, but you wouldn't choose it. Does that make sense? That's what I was going for.
     
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  8. LaTrompeta

    LaTrompeta Forte User

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    I think, in my OP, it was with the assumption that you already had the internal aspects down, and instead of trying to buy style, you were looking for a trumpet that would best match what is already inside you.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually it depends on WHO is buying it. Many that visit TrumpetMaster will get the "exact" same results regardless if they have an Ingram/Callichio/Bach or Monette. The less mature player could even have an advantage with a light horn and a big mouthpiece. The working professional symphony player also has a stable of models to choose from: Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, Monette, Shires, various rotary trumpets in Bb, C, and other keys as well as heavy and lightweight.

    It is another issue entirely why there are so many different brands and models. The manufacturers play the players beliefs, myths, prejudices as well as tradition. They are trying to sell more trumpets - not necessarily advance the art. In America there is a VERY conservative hardware attitude in the classical world that has not been good for the trumpet player or the music. Traditional old Germany/Austria are far more flexible.

    I am not saying that there is no differences in the base trumpet sound, the question is what does that mean when we attach the player with:
    1) weak chops and bad practice habits
    2) medium player with bad practice habits
    3) medium player with good practice habits
    4) advanced player with strong all round practice habits
    5) advanced player with primarily jazz venues
    6) advanced player with primarily classical venues

    Which ones leverage a horn enough to make a serious difference? Are the differences theoretical for the rest?

    Check this link out for well researched habits...
    http://abel.hive.no/trompet/playerhorn/

    Statistically, the Bach 37 and 72/72* seem get the most overall traction in all venues! If you only want one horn...

    Now, to get into a conservative US premium orchestra, you need to look what the trumpet section is playing and use that. If they are playing Xenos, they will see if you are using a Mt. Vernon Bach and that may not be good. In Germany, you play behind a curtain - the best player usually wins. For a college or community orchestra, it probably does not matter what horn - you have to fill the part.

    Those that get to play Mahler 5 really do not ask for recommendations.

    Vulgano Brother has often said that the right horn finds you...

     
  10. ATrumpetDude

    ATrumpetDude Piano User

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