I'm going to have to disagree with some of this...by no means were all bach and conn cornets were student quality horns. Up until conn moved to Texas, they're cornets were most definitely not student quality. I've played plenty of coprion directors that match or surpass most new horns I've tried. Not to mention all of their professional instruments, like the 9a or 5a, or the connstelations. Same goes for bach. I know for a fact that there are some people on here that would not be too happy to hear someone say that their strad cornets were student grade. There may be a quality control issue, but that doesn't mean many of them were nice pro instruments. As for olds, the ambassador was built not as a student horn, but as a professional quality trumpet for people with a smaller budget. Until they were bought out in the 70s, olds continued this tradition and I've played many of great ambassadors.