What the?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Smrtn, Dec 2, 2014.

  1. BigDub

    BigDub Fortissimo User

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    Let's call a truce. I call it. ENOUGH now. The horse is dead, he's been beaten, and beaten again, and then a few more times.
     
  2. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    I'm not quite ready to hold a high C that long TJ, but your figures seem pretty much in line with mine. A bit over 30 seconds down low, somewhat longer at the top of the stave.

    Whatever we are doing at top C is some cycle that repeats at nearly 1,000 times per second which is way too fast for our sensory perception or thought processes to monitor in real time. So we can only relate to it by analogy: with everyday actions that occur in a human timeframe for most, or some scientific hieroglyphs for those who are so inclined. Neither case is "the real thing" but if it helps get us where we want to be then it's done its job.

    Problems happen, of course, when we kid ourselves that the analogy "is" the real thing, and we start extrapolating it beyond its sphere of usefulness.

    My reading of the "faster air" concept is that if we perform what we would do to create "fast air" if there were no trumpet there: purse and firm the embouchure, raise lung pressure etc.; then we "incidentally" create the correct conditions for the lips to vibrate at a higher resonant frequency when there "is" a trumpet there to interact with us.

    As regards the actual spot volumes and velocities of air at any given instant, this is way beyond our sensory ballpark and all under the control of the physical conditions in the air column and impedance characteristics of the trumpet. And part of these characteristics, is to provide significant backpressure and impedance to slow the airflow to what the instrument needs to sustain its resonance (as opposed to what we might "think" it needs). So instead of exhausting our lungs in 10 seconds, tj at least can hold high C for very nearly a minute.

    I don't believe the "faster air" analogy is wrong as a means to an end, and can be very helpful in assisting the development of a young player. But I'm pretty damn sure it's wrong as a physical reality, and those who recommend all sorts of facial and tongue contortions to somehow 'funnel' and accelerate air based on this false understanding are really barking up the wrong tree.
     
  3. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    I'd never beat a dead horse. I'd just bury it.
     
  4. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Okay BigD. Roger and out ;-)
     
  5. tjcombo

    tjcombo Mezzo Forte User

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    I think you've nailed it Seth with the difference between useful analogue and actuality. A year or so back, after making some advances in range with glissandos up and down, I'd have sworn blind that I could feel the higher pressure (faster?) air racing across my arched tongue. Now that some of the improved range is in regular, comfortable reach, I'm not so sure.

    There's been some great info and references in this thread and I now have a better idea of how the whole player/trumpet thing works. The problem is that a "light bulb" can switch on instantly, but playing improvement is so damn incremental that benefits of an improved understanding take a while to come through.
     
  6. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    DHC -- only about 10 seconds depending on the day -- and that is only at mp (which means "softly" for all of you engineers and teachers) --- the pedal tones, I can hold for about 5 minutes ----- as that is about as long as I have this "circular breathing thing" going before I feel I will pass out ---
    "CIRCULAR BREATHING" --- yes GM taught me this one --- so when you laugh, and discount this ---please call GM and ask him to TEACH each of you

    thank you and have a great day (I don't often DONT DO "circular breathing" that often anyhow--- as I heard it caused brain damage in saxophone players)) -- no, I have NO statistics to verify that comment
     
  7. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    glad I finally know what to call you people --- :evil: :evil: :evil: I hope you all get together at the annual convention for some group therapy --- like group hugs, maybe that will help you all :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Hmmm,

    King, you want to have your cake and eat it too?

    I don't think that I have any fan club here. I do have people that carefully read what I post and comment on the individual points. Many even disagree and a "dialog" is created. The difference between them and others is that they make an effort to understand why I posted in the first place. Many times we are even on the same page but realize this after qualified discussion. I got my ass whipped by Sethoflagos about latitudinal and longitudinal waves as applied to the trumpet for instance......... At the end of the day we do cover quite a bit of complicated material and we look back and see the benefits of "dialog" vs "arguing".

    You can gladly disagree with me. You simply have to enter in "dialog" with an unknown outcome. Then you have to be able to explain why you disagree. It is a simple procedure: find commonly understood terminology and go for it. I can, with 40 years of research, support a monolog on what I post here. That is not very much fun because when there are no questions, no one has been paying attention. I describe experiments that I have performed and the results gleaned. I am not always right, but have an easy time identifying why I am quick to label someone as having an "unqualified" personal opinion hardly worthy of repeating (mostly copy/pasting), much less commenting.

    I get painted as the lonely warrior with a flamethrower waiting to blast anyone with another opinion. That is a VERY shallow view of things considering the depth that I go into here knowing very well how many will never even bother to try to understand. So, instead of thinking about how I challenge others, turn it around and think about why someone here should even bother trying to explain difficult material. Also think about how people do successfully disagree with me (and help me get better).

    If I do have any following here, it is only because some appreciate content and my willingness to let ideas bounce off with critical (not negative) commentary.

    If I did have my own army you can imagine what basic training would look like - Circle of Breath, tension relief, daily routine, do instead of talk, research before stating, ask to learn before telling.

    They would be called Wukies. They would be insane - just like me. I would be immediately redundant - the best feeling in the world.

     
  9. BigDub

    BigDub Fortissimo User

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    Rowuk, when can I expect my certificate of membership and secret decoder ring? It's been 7 to 10 business days since I applied.....I am usually very patient. Please advise.:cool:
     

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