What the?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Smrtn, Dec 2, 2014.

  1. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

    Sep 20, 2009
    New York State USA
    let's see -- WHERE should I NOT EVEN BEGIN to answer --

    hey, all I know is I have two books by a fairly decent trumpet player, explaining how to play higher notes, and playing in general ---I've also got his latest CD ---- Keith Fiala can play very well --- so let me quote something from one of his books (Keith played with Maynard also)

    "Keith Fiala said... The only thing that will truly help range is practicing the proper playing technique and utilizing faster air with your abs - not your lips."

    FASTER AIR --- someone please WRITE to Keith or call him up, and tell him he's wrong --
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006

    I can't comment as I have not read Keiths book and you only posted YOUR UNDERSTANDING which may or may not apply. In any case, IF YOU ACCURATELY QUOTED AND THERE IS NOTHING MORE:

    Abs are gross motor muscles and are not capable of speed anything. They can tense up and thus add compression to the breathing cycle (however not in any type of precice way - we need further tension elsewhere to function as a valve for the excess pressure created).

    If someone is so far out on basic body functions, why bother.

    Keith is successful with his visualisations, not his scientific analysis. With all of the real research on body functions out there, why is it so hard for some of you to simply read a bit more from those in that part of the scientific world? Why should I write or call Keith? He is not presenting a paper to Scientific American, or the New England Journal of Medicine. He is just doing his own trumpet thing and not making any absolute claims except what he think works for him based on what he thinks. Just ask anyone studying the human body how breathing works.

    This is not a comment on Keiths book! It is on the basic IGNORANCE of body and physical functions. My definition of IGNORANCE is "a person with adequate intelligence choosing to IGNORE important portions of a specific subject material". After the last couple of thread, no one can claim lack of exposure.

    I invite ANYONE to present a study of air speed and the entire trumpet system with the methodology that could lead to a qualified quantification.

    I am talking about physical measurements not subjectivity based on common myths.

  3. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    While medical texts make great door stops, personal texts make for great tissue sources for bathroom functions. Rowuk is spot on in that the gross abdominal muscle function is there only to provide the fuel source (air pressure transmitted to the chest cavity) for the finer motor control of the muscles that really do the work (through fine vibratory motion) and that is the lips. Anyone who tells you otherwise is providing lip(dis)service.
  4. BigDub

    BigDub Fortissimo User

    Dec 19, 2009
    Hillsborough, NJ
    Where does the source of power come from that initiates the heart beat, that pumps the blood, that brings oxygen in order to control the brain to produce the electrons, that tells the abs, that tell the lungs, that push the air, (fast or slow) to tell the lips to vibrate and how move the tongue in the right place?
    I'll check the owner's manual.
  5. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    No need to. You're overdue for your 50,000 mile check up. Schedule an appointment with me soon.
  6. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

    Dec 22, 2008
    Kestrel 1000 Wind Meter | Pocket Wind Meter

    It would be interesting to experiment with a wind meter to see how fast the flow out the lead pipe would be blowing hard and soft. I can barely feel a puff out the end of the mpc, let alone the lead pipe, then the tubing to the bell. Other than acting as an exhaust port, so your head doesn't explode, You don't move a ton of air through the horn.
  7. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

    Nov 16, 2009
    Near Portland, OR.
    I almost miss the days of fights over mouthpieces or who is the best player ever...
    Considering what the internet does to people, sometimes I wonder if one should participate to any of these forums at all.

    Could we be having again confusion between air flow (volume exiting the oral cavity over time) and airstream velocity (the time it takes an O2 or N2 molecule to go from inside the aperture to outside the aperture)? The latter can very well increase while the former decreases. In my opinion this may well be what happens when playing high notes on the trumpet.

    I will not, however, try to impose my opinion, search for peer-reviewed studies to back it up, defend it as accurate, or more accurate than others, or anything of that nature. I have no stakes in this fight and I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything in particular, others can hack at it if they feel so strongly about it. For myself, I have never found a visualization that worked better than that of Greg Spence (mystery to mastery). I'm happy with that and the body use awareness I learned from my teacher and from going to the Monette shop to buy my mouthpiece

    Playing trumpet is not a natural function. The physics are quite complex. In order to succeed and progress, we have to conceptualize what we do in such a way that we can elaborate on it. Our conceptualization (visualization) is likely inaccurate from the physics point of view, as few of us are aware of all the details of the physics, but if they help, and do not turn into a dead end, is it really that bad?

    I used to run into this problem all the time when teaching future flight instructors about maneuvering speed. There was no need to go into advanced discussions of physics (which I couldn't have pushed very far anyway), and they all got it eventually with simplified explanations of wing loading.

    Tying ourselves in knots over the words we use for visualization is counterproductive. If one knows the physics, he should pay attention to the words others use to describe their visualization, and use words that can help them according to how they formed their understanding, not try to force them into more accurate visualizations that they will resist. All models are wrong, some are useful. Their understanding may not be physically accurate but if it allows them to progress, who cares?

    I had to adapt in such ways all the time when I was a flight instructor. I quickly abandoned all the negative emotions that I initially conceived against physically inaccurate perceptions because it would have made me miserable and it was not helping students either. I found it way more productive to build on their level of understanding and modify the language they were using when necessary. I certainly would not have taken the strong headed approach of telling them they were all wrong and didn't know squat, but then again, dealing with people face to face in a classroom is a lot less conducive to that attitude than internet. I should add that it also is a setting where students are a lot less likely to argue as if they know better, although with adult learners one can be surprised
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
    tobylou8 likes this.
  8. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

    Oct 26, 2003
    That might be your opinion, but from my perspective new discourse on any given topic is usually a good thing - it's often during new or continued discourse where innovative ideas are offered, or someone is able to say something in a way that helps someone else understand. That's how progress is usually made - if you shut down the thread, you stop progress for someone, and considering I was here at this board's inception, that's what this board was originally all about.
    neal085 likes this.
  9. BigDub

    BigDub Fortissimo User

    Dec 19, 2009
    Hillsborough, NJ
    During the time the Wright Brothers were working on a heavier than air flying machine being able fly under it's own power, the entire world of science and technology vehimently denied it's possibility, even said it was absolutely impossible. Across the board. It wasn't opinion, it was fact. How are your facts holding up? So far, so good. Wait a while. The medical journals from as recently as 1950 are almost entirely flawed and incorrect by today's knowledge, or are they? How do we know? They were certain of these facts.
    It's good to have an open mind. It's very freeing. Try it.
  10. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    The Wright Brothers were from Dayton. I am from Dayton. Any questions?

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