Why do people try to sound dark?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Brass_of_all_Trades, Sep 20, 2014.

  1. bumblebee

    bumblebee Fortissimo User

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    To go around the bush again...

    fine, but what if the dark trumpet is playing high notes, or the bright trumpet notes below the staff?

    That's where I struggle a little. Or used to. I'm fine now. Can't say the same about day after tomorrow though.

    --bumblebee
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Forget about dark and blend. It is a myth. Dark in a section = mush. Blend is when you get tons of pleasant resultant tones from a section of resonant players.
     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I think I have figured out the problem.......

    1) The typical thought of a "not mature" trumpet is with a crappy, obnoxious tone that doesn't blend. The first thing that comes to mind is to darken up the tone so it is not as obnoxious. Unfortunately, crappy dark is MUCH worse than bright as the entire ensemble sounds crappy with the mush in the middle.

    2) the "mee too" syndrome. We hear commercial productions of players that have engineered sounds and specific ensembles with no colissions in frequency response and want to emulate that style of playing. The problem is you can't reengineer mush. The player needs a solid resonant tone, then many things on the mix board are possible. In addition the style of play needs to match the tonal concept. Those wanting dark are not even yet in the ballpark for style determining sound.

    Bright and dark are very primitive descriptions of - nothing - except wishful thinking.
     
  4. Brass_of_all_Trades

    Brass_of_all_Trades New Friend

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    What do you mean by resultant tones? Is that when the overtones line up and you can almost hear notes higher than the first part despite no one playing them?
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Resultant tones are the sum and difference of the frequencies being played. When our intonation and solidity of tone is good enough, lower and higher frequencies result from the addition and subtraction. This is the product of real blend. If you haven't been there, the myth of blend means not hearing individuals. The best ensembles let you hear each player as part of a sonic fabric. There is a common "sound" but still the individuals. Blend is not like a smoothie - everything ground to the lowest common denominator with no longer recognizable individual ingredients!

     
  6. AZTBNDAD

    AZTBNDAD New Friend

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    By Jove I think he's got it!

    I didn't even think to consider constructive and de-constructive interference! That's a problem that has both a source and a venue component. A close venue has reflective feedback which in theory the sound could recombine, generate overtones and nulls. The outdoor venue is largely absent of this possibility, except in fully enclosed venues like a bowl football stadium.

    Wow...just went back to college physics....
     
  7. Brass_of_all_Trades

    Brass_of_all_Trades New Friend

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    I think I get it. In terms of physics you're talking about constructive interference right?
     
  8. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    Heterodyne.

    Tom
     
  9. Brass_of_all_Trades

    Brass_of_all_Trades New Friend

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    I admit I had to look that one up. Interesting, I was told that (what I know now are called) resultant tones were caused by the "overtones lining up". I guess that was my former teacher's unscientific way of describing heterodynes.
     
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I am not talking about "room gain". I am talking about sum and difference tones when multiple players play with similar "intensity". Anyone who ever played recorder duets learns about this early. heterodyning is the technical term in RF.. An example: A/440 ad C/512 played at the same time have "resultant tones" of 72hz and 952Hz. Major chords in tune produce resultant tones that are in harmony with that chord. All others cause interference. The physical concept applies anywhere more than one sound source exists. It becomes audible when the intensity/quality of tone is great enough. With weak players, these sonic byproducts are primarily destructive and with better players they are constructive.

    The case of the trumpet is more complex as the overtone series is richer and what we hear is primarily the first overtone, not the fundemental. Ever wonder why a trumpet is twice as long as a clarinet or oboe although they play in the exact same range? The fundemental is weak due to the small bell size. This also has a lot to do with why none of the "logical" considerations seem to apply.

     

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