Why Is There No Discussion On Trumpet Andragogy?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by bamajazzlady, Sep 4, 2015.

  1. kehaulani

    kehaulani Fortissimo User

    May 14, 2011
    Hawaian homey
    When I first got here in Austin, I checked out the community bands in the area. There are several and they are of varying levels. One of those I visited, is a New Horizons. The players were not strong, so I passed on it (although I've considered playing a double in it.) But the band members seemed to be a friendly and interested (and probably interesting) group of people. One lady, bless her heart, when the rehearsal ended went over to put her sax up and connected herself to one of those nose-breathing oxygen tubes.

    From what I know of the OP, this band, or one like it, would be right up her alley. No pressure, standard arrangements and friendly people. I don't know the logistics involved or what is or isn't available in a broader geographic range, but for myself, in Japan, I used to travel by train i.5 hrs for my sax lesson, the same length for a composition/arranging lesson, and later in Germany, about two hours for a lesson. When I began playing in a community band here, I was also commuting about an hour, round trip. Inconvenient but doable.
  2. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

    Oct 18, 2007
    The Wide Brown Land
  3. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

    Jun 11, 2006
    South Salem, NY
    You ask a very interesting question. In her Doctoral thesis "A Model View: Achievement, Recreational and Adult Beginning Violin Instruction" Lauren Davis talks about these very issues. For instance about how all the beginning tutor books have cartoons aimed at 7 year old students. And how the achievement model does not work for adult beginners.

    My teaching is dedicated to the recreational model, where the learning and repertoire is determined by the student. I wrote briefly about it in this blog Teaching Recreational Players

    I am currently in the process of setting up a not for profit foundation dedicated to the furtherance of recreational music making, and am accepting invitations to speak on exactly this topic.
  4. kehaulani

    kehaulani Fortissimo User

    May 14, 2011
    Hawaian homey
    This is patently untrue. A false straw man, not unusual in doctoral dissertations.
  5. cb5270

    cb5270 Pianissimo User

    Jul 20, 2013
  6. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

    Dec 22, 2008
    I've let google do the walking and will paste the results.


    As a former "comeback" player, one thing I learned early in my comeback. No one is going to do anything for me. "If it's gonna be, it's up to me"! If I couldn't play a certain passage of music, lacked the required range, or didn't have the control to play dynamics and articulation properly, it was all on me. I did learn the language of music as a child and I do have pictures of me "playing" a Martin Committee when I was 3 (no beginner horn for me :roll:). While I do occasionally confer with my former teacher, as already mentioned by some, the pressures of life and dictates that far outweigh my hobby interfered. What is one to do? It depends on how hot that fire burns in your gut. I would disagree that there is no discussion of andragogy. This forum is my evidence. This world wide brain trust has given me personally more information than any one person could. Long tones for a child are the same long tones for an adult. An Eb scale at 7 is the same Eb scale at 54 and it will be the same at 104. The methods and techniques don't have an age stamp on them. The Rubank books don't say, "For ages 3-8". I don't see a conspiratorial "ageism" angle for the lack of andragogy. What I have observed, is that most adults pick their careers by their late 20's and if they do get into music later it's as a hobby and they accept that. As far as teaching adults vs. kids, give me kids any day. Adults "know" everything and can be difficult on many levels.
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    I understand the problem. Marginal teachers can get away with babysitting beginning children because the students generally do not have defined expectations. Adults that take the time for lessons and actually prepare need things that make sense to them and offer small steps forward as well as satisfying intellectual curiosity.

    I do not see this changing anytime soon. My best advice would be to call a professional trumpet player in the area and ask for advice. They could have an excellent student that they would back up. Even a symphonic trumpet player could help a jazz oriented adult in a serious way.

    As far as methods go, there are enough things out there perfectly suited for adult education - including Arban, Clarke, Adams, Irons. The teacher just has to do a good job of selecting what comes next.
  8. Pinstriper

    Pinstriper Mezzo Forte User

    Nov 26, 2013
    After having pondered on this for a while now, I have come to the conclusion that Adult Music Education only needs to matter to the adult involved.

    Without contradicting OP's experience, I am unable to bring myself to believe that music educators at large are doing so well financially that they can afford to pick and choose from among the throngs of people rushing, cash in hand, to take private lessons. There must be some local anomaly that underemployed music majors 100 miles away are not aware of, in terms of the opportunities. Or something else must be at work. Ageism, like any discrimination, is a luxury the stereotypical starving musician can ill afford.

    Maybe it is the case that adult students are more likely to have pressing matters at work or with kids etc. that cause them to miss or cancel lessons at the last minute (and insist on not being charged) while child students attend (or at least pay in the case of missed lessons) more regularly.
  9. Honkie

    Honkie Pianissimo User

    Feb 22, 2013
    This may or may not help the conversation...but, here goes.

    I am American, though I've lived outside the US for many years. It seems to me that the American ideal of "self-reliance" or the "spirit of independence" takes some weird forms in practice. Everything becomes the individual's sole responsibility, from health care to education.

    In other countries, it seems like "the community" is an entity that tries to make itself stronger by providing for the needs of its constituents. It's like, everyone assumed to be part of the community whether they want to be or not. It's assumed a community includes very different types of people. In the US, community is something the individual has to make effort to join, and it's only similarities that hold the group together, not differences.

    Is this off-topic? Well, I'm suggesting that something like adult education comes from a generous community, one that sees that different types of people have different needs. I feel that in the US, communities are not really especially generous or inclusive, so adult education is not valued.

    Apologies in advance if I'm off-base or overly political, or not making sense.
  10. kehaulani

    kehaulani Fortissimo User

    May 14, 2011
    Hawaian homey
    You're not off base, by any means. I lived in Germany for 20 years and had "community" leanings long before that. It has been really hard coming back to the US in that regard. And Texas, especially, is a real "pull yourself up by your boot straps" kind of place. On the other hand, it's that Darwinian approach that's made the US as innovative and dynamic a country as it is.

    In the US, for adults, universities offer continuing education, or enrichment courses. The community college system here in Austin, is very good in that regard. I've attended (as well as taught English) for the Volkshochschule (Peoples' College) system in my county and it's very, very good. The course range is broad, but it's more "practical" as contrasted with more academic studies. Music performance oriented courses are at the city and county state music schools, which have people of all ranges of ages.

    Additionally, most band playing is not in the schools, certainly not for college-aged adults and older, but in the community bands. One of mine had, for example, a 12 year old drummer and an 80-something year old Tenor Horn player, and everything in between.

    Of course, I think a real distinction is not only between societies, but between urban and rural areas. While many rural areas in the states are fiercely independent, these people are also likely to come together in an instant if there is a real need for community help.

Share This Page