Wynton's indentation

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by chet fan, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

    Aug 16, 2009
    Jackson NC
    Whenever you've played as much as Wynton, then you can worry about indentation. All I can say is diabetic edema exacerbates the appearance of pressure impression. Yes, I've seen many instrument players with obvious appearance that they've played extensively ... the most outstanding to me being a clarinet - saxophone player with the National Symphony. So .....
  2. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

    Nov 16, 2009
    Near Portland, OR.
    You can look at Maurice Andre, and he has an altered top lip shape (as thin as his top lip is), so does Guy Touvron, and Bill Chase, and Nick Drozdoff, and Miles and pretty much anyone who has spent enough time on the horn.

    All player use some pressure and also change their underlying muscle topography. It is a fine line between using some pressure and too much pressure. The lip shape is not necessarily an indication of using too much pressure.

    An indication of too much pressure is that your playing degrades and even experiences losses that can be irreversible. I heard that happened to Louis Armstrong, but I'm not sure. I read Freddie Hubbard describing how he got caught into using too much pressure and how that affected his playing.

    An indication of using the right amount of pressure is that, after many many years, your playing is still going strong and not limited by degraded lips (other age related factors might be there but not that one). Doc Severinsen comes to mind. Doesn't his top lip also looks somewhat altered? But who cares, really?
  3. wolfmann

    wolfmann Pianissimo User

    Aug 19, 2010
    When you do something repetitive with your body it conforms.

    I noticed a few million years ago that every trumpet player that has played more than JUST a few years has some type of LIP so to speak.

    I actually dont even notice it now.
  4. jbkirby

    jbkirby Forte User

    Sep 10, 2009
    Dothan, Alabama

    Why do you think he was called Satchmo (satchel-mouth)? His upper lip looked like a flap of a satchel! Man, what a player!!!!
  5. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

    Oct 26, 2003
    My thought on the matter has always been that pressure is pressure - whether or not it's considered "too much" pressure depends on whether or not it is being seriously detrimental to your playing.

    In Wynton's case, he may in fact be using more pressure than some people do, and possibly enough pressure that it would be detrimental to the playing of someone else. For Wynton however, you'd be hard-pressed to say that it was actually "too much" because the cat play's his behind off and has more ability on the horn than 99.999% of the world's trumpet players - it obviously isn't hurting him.

    So is the indentation due to the mouthpiece? Possibly, but I'd say the answer was "no" as to whether or not it's too much pressure.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  6. wiseone2

    wiseone2 Artitst in Residence Staff Member

    Nov 19, 2003
    Wynton uses very little pressure to play,that is the reason I chose this video. Look carefully and you'll see that he uses very, very little pressure. I have mentioned to him that he should keep his head still, I hope he listens to me. Wynton's a very easy player, the kid can play all day and all night.
  7. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

    Nov 16, 2009
    Near Portland, OR.
    I looked at that vid and I don't see Wynton using pressure; I mean, really, he seems actually very light.

    I can see Allison using some in this vid at about 3.58:

    YouTube - Libertango (Alison Balsom) - Last Night of the Proms 2009

    Then again it does not mean that it's the kind of pressure that would be detrimental to her playing in the long run. I don't know, I'm not her teacher:lol:
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    Most of you without the "embouchure experience" are confused.

    Advanced chops actually press the lips together, and sometimes it appears that that also makes the lips "grab" the mouthpiece. To the uninitiated, they see face mass AROUND the mouthpiece and think that it is pressure. It is usually not.

    Excessive pressure on the other hand, squeezes off the lips thus limiting range and endurance.

    If you have the chops to get through your gigs without beating yourself up, you are well on the way to doing it correctly - with the correct amount of pressure. If you have to think about "hitting" notes, you are not there yet. Pressure is actually not a big deal, if you have a good teacher, practice diligently and only accept gigs for things within your playing ability.

    Wynton plays long club gigs with world class musicality, sound and range. You do not survive that without playing "correctly".
  9. dkrice

    dkrice Pianissimo User

    May 20, 2011
    The most amazing thing I noticed about Wynton's video was his breathing technique. If only...

    In the Nick Drozdoff video someone posted in another thread earlier today I did wonder about his use of pressure. After he played on that Getzen 490 for a bit it looked like his lips were bleeding because they were so red.

    Another great example of playing without a lot of pressure is Tine Thing Helseth.

    ‪J. N. Hummel - Trumpet Concerto in Eb, 3rd mvt.‬‏ - YouTube
  10. amzi

    amzi Forte User

    Feb 18, 2010
    Northern California
    Rowuk makes a valid point. Back in the days when I actually had range as I played higher my lips became thicker (front to back) and actually formed a cushion. There was also additional mouthpiece pressure involved, but because of the cushion the pressure didn't result in excessive fatigue. It was something I "discovered" working to crack the double A barrier. Never watched myself play, but the sensation was very much like my lips were "grabbing" the mouthpiece.

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