Aticulations - Page 2

Liad Bar-EL · 11-29-2006, 01:49 PM

Thanks Manny for your prompt reply and please forgive me for being so ignorant on this and I really hope that you are not bothered by these questions for I have a couple of more questions if you don't mind.

Why are bow markings placed in a trumpet part?

You mentioned that the ^ deals with the quality of the attack. In Debussy's La Mer, Dialogue of the Wind and the Sea, there is this mark ^ with a dot under it which over a whole note. I have also seen this (^) over a dash but don't recall where at this time. I'm a little confused here on what to do.

Concerning the V marking, I do not have Pulcinella yet; however, I have noticed that Respighi puts them on the top or under the notes, Mahler puts them under the notes and Theo Charlier in his Du Style puts them between the notes. Do they all mean the same thing in these cases? Also, for this length to be accurate, are your eyes on the conductor at these points?

Concerning the dash/dot, I have seen this marking with the dot on top of the dash as in Beethoven's Symphone No. 9 and I have seen it under it as in Beethoven's Leonare Overtures. Do they both mean the same as you mentioned?

Thanks much for your help, Manny.

Liad Bar-EL

Manny Laureano · 11-29-2006, 03:04 PM

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liad Bar-EL

Why are bow markings placed in a trumpet part?

I don't understand... in what pieces are there bow markings other than those put in by the player as phrasing guides? Are you talking about my metaphor of lifting the bow? Or is it the the V accents are being miscontrued as bowings?

You mentioned that the ^ deals with the quality of the attack. In Debussy's La Mer, Dialogue of the Wind and the Sea, there is this mark ^ with a dot under it which over a whole note. I have also seen this (^) over a dash but don't recall where at this time. I'm a little confused here on what to do.

It's a cultural question plus the inconsistency of musical epochs and editors.

Concerning the V marking, I do not have Pulcinella yet; however, I have noticed that Respighi puts them on the top or under the notes, Mahler puts them under the notes and Theo Charlier in his Du Style puts them between the notes. Do they all mean the same thing in these cases? Also, for this length to be accurate, are your eyes on the conductor at these points?

As I said, it's a question of musical culture between, in these cases, the French, Italians, and Austr-Germanic traditions.

Concerning the dash/dot, I have seen this marking with the dot on top of the dash as in Beethoven's Symphone No. 9 and I have seen it under it as in Beethoven's Leonare Overtures. Do they both mean the same as you mentioned?

I can tell you Beethoven never used that marking for the trumpet. This is the work and judgement of an editor.

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heik · 11-29-2006, 08:46 PM

Hi folks,

I think we are missing a very important point here. That is the different meanings that same markings get depending on historical period.

Besides that, if we understand the exact meaning of the word stacatto being literally "separated" and NOT short, a whole new perspective opens up. LONG notes can also be separated from one another. A dot over a half note on Beethoven will assume a very different meaning than a dot over a stravinsky eight note. Stacatto is much more a matter of space between notes than it is of the shortness of notes themselves! IMHO of course!

As for the > and ^ markings, I totaly agree with what has been stated by posts before mine.

Just my two cents! Great thread BTW.

Best to all,
Heinz Karl

heik · 11-29-2006, 08:51 PM

Hi, with his last post Mr. Manny just touched on points I felt needed to be touched. As always, well said. And very generous also! Thanks for that.
Heinz Karl

Liad Bar-EL · 11-30-2006, 05:23 AM

Manny: "I don't understand... in what pieces are there bow markings other than those put in by the player as phrasing guides? Are you talking about my metaphor of lifting the bow? Or is it the the V accents are being miscontrued as bowings?"

Sorry, it seems that I misunderstood your previous comment:

[The dash/dot marking is like lifting the bow between several notes. A longish note, to be sure, but with a quick lift.]

Maybe just to add to this a little, the dash/dot notation is used in the solo of Sibelius's Symphony No. 2: 4th movement and the comment is (w/slight detachment); so, this fits in to the "quick lift" statement.

Heik, your "point" is well taken concerning the dot over the note. The dot under the ^ is over a whole note and attached to a quarter note in the next bar. This is on bar 61 of the reference I gave. I mean where there the "detachment" that represents the dot over the note when it is tied to another one in the next bar?

One more comment/question and I'll leave this thread for others. In R. Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra: Opening, in C, there is a written half note G (A) above the staff, followed by a breath mark, followed by a quarter note A (B) followed by a breath mark, followed by a quarter note B (C) followed by a breath mark and ending with a high C (D). We have three breath marks after each three notes. One is to breathe after each note and make a fresh attack on the following ones? Talk about "detachment"...one can't be more "detached" in their playing than this.

Greatly appreciate your help, Manny.

Liad Bar-EL

wiseone2 · 12-01-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liad Bar-EL

Manny: "I don't understand... in what pieces are there bow markings other than those put in by the player as phrasing guides? Are you talking about my metaphor of lifting the bow? Or is it the the V accents are being miscontrued as bowings?"

Sorry, it seems that I misunderstood your previous comment:

[The dash/dot marking is like lifting the bow between several notes. A longish note, to be sure, but with a quick lift.]

Maybe just to add to this a little, the dash/dot notation is used in the solo of Sibelius's Symphony No. 2: 4th movement and the comment is (w/slight detachment); so, this fits in to the "quick lift" statement.

Heik, your "point" is well taken concerning the dot over the note. The dot under the ^ is over a whole note and attached to a quarter note in the next bar. This is on bar 61 of the reference I gave. I mean where there the "detachment" that represents the dot over the note when it is tied to another one in the next bar?

One more comment/question and I'll leave this thread for others. In R. Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra: Opening, in C, there is a written half note G (A) above the staff, followed by a breath mark, followed by a quarter note A (B) followed by a breath mark, followed by a quarter note B (C) followed by a breath mark and ending with a high C (D). We have three breath marks after each three notes. One is to breathe after each note and make a fresh attack on the following ones? Talk about "detachment"...one can't be more "detached" in their playing than this.

Greatly appreciate your help, Manny.

Liad Bar-EL

http://www.treblis.com/Notation/Music.htm

rowuk · 12-09-2006, 04:36 PM

When trying to analyse the markings, it may be useful to know a little bit about the composers own instrument. A violin for instance has several technical possibilities for "short" notes: bouncing the bow on the string, pizzicato, or leaving the bow on the string and moving it for a short time. All of the notes are "short" and each has a completely different sound. The same would apply to a piano, where the damper pedal can change the expression.
Trumpet players also have many versions of short. Tut, dud, kak or tonguing between the teeth (thuth) in addition to only working with air: tah, dah or kah. All can be used to great effect. I heard the St. Petersburg Symphony(Russia) last weekend play Scheherazade. The 1st trumpet player played the sextuplets very much like a bouncing bow on a violin. It was a new experience for me! Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to meet him after the concert as they left the stage and got on their bus right away.

All of the other markings are also subject to interpretation. Legato on a piano or pipe organ for instance can even let notes overlap some for effect.

For my own playing, each mark can have varying attack and release techniques. It really depends on the music, the conductor and what we are trying to accomplish. Inspiration can be found everywhere - I think Heifetz was mentioned on another post. His Hora Staccato has every shade of short you could imagine!

11-30-2006, 05:23 AM	#15 (permalink)
Liad Bar-EL Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 1,168	Manny: "I don't understand... in what pieces are there bow markings other than those put in by the player as phrasing guides? Are you talking about my metaphor of lifting the bow? Or is it the the V accents are being miscontrued as bowings?" Sorry, it seems that I misunderstood your previous comment: [The dash/dot marking is like lifting the bow between several notes. A longish note, to be sure, but with a quick lift.] Maybe just to add to this a little, the dash/dot notation is used in the solo of Sibelius's Symphony No. 2: 4th movement and the comment is (w/slight detachment); so, this fits in to the "quick lift" statement. Heik, your "point" is well taken concerning the dot over the note. The dot under the ^ is over a whole note and attached to a quarter note in the next bar. This is on bar 61 of the reference I gave. I mean where there the "detachment" that represents the dot over the note when it is tied to another one in the next bar? One more comment/question and I'll leave this thread for others. In R. Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra: Opening, in C, there is a written half note G (A) above the staff, followed by a breath mark, followed by a quarter note A (B) followed by a breath mark, followed by a quarter note B (C) followed by a breath mark and ending with a high C (D). We have three breath marks after each three notes. One is to breathe after each note and make a fresh attack on the following ones? Talk about "detachment"...one can't be more "detached" in their playing than this. Greatly appreciate your help, Manny. Liad Bar-EL Last edited by Liad Bar-EL; 11-30-2006 at 06:43 AM.

12-09-2006, 04:36 PM	#17 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,374	Re: Aticulations When trying to analyse the markings, it may be useful to know a little bit about the composers own instrument. A violin for instance has several technical possibilities for "short" notes: bouncing the bow on the string, pizzicato, or leaving the bow on the string and moving it for a short time. All of the notes are "short" and each has a completely different sound. The same would apply to a piano, where the damper pedal can change the expression. Trumpet players also have many versions of short. Tut, dud, kak or tonguing between the teeth (thuth) in addition to only working with air: tah, dah or kah. All can be used to great effect. I heard the St. Petersburg Symphony(Russia) last weekend play Scheherazade. The 1st trumpet player played the sextuplets very much like a bouncing bow on a violin. It was a new experience for me! Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to meet him after the concert as they left the stage and got on their bus right away. All of the other markings are also subject to interpretation. Legato on a piano or pipe organ for instance can even let notes overlap some for effect. For my own playing, each mark can have varying attack and release techniques. It really depends on the music, the conductor and what we are trying to accomplish. Inspiration can be found everywhere - I think Heifetz was mentioned on another post. His Hora Staccato has every shade of short you could imagine! __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

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11-29-2006, 01:49 PM	#11 (permalink)
Liad Bar-EL Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 1,168	Thanks Manny for your prompt reply and please forgive me for being so ignorant on this and I really hope that you are not bothered by these questions for I have a couple of more questions if you don't mind. Why are bow markings placed in a trumpet part? You mentioned that the ^ deals with the quality of the attack. In Debussy's La Mer, Dialogue of the Wind and the Sea, there is this mark ^ with a dot under it which over a whole note. I have also seen this (^) over a dash but don't recall where at this time. I'm a little confused here on what to do. Concerning the V marking, I do not have Pulcinella yet; however, I have noticed that Respighi puts them on the top or under the notes, Mahler puts them under the notes and Theo Charlier in his Du Style puts them between the notes. Do they all mean the same thing in these cases? Also, for this length to be accurate, are your eyes on the conductor at these points? Concerning the dash/dot, I have seen this marking with the dot on top of the dash as in Beethoven's Symphone No. 9 and I have seen it under it as in Beethoven's Leonare Overtures. Do they both mean the same as you mentioned? Thanks much for your help, Manny. Liad Bar-EL

11-29-2006, 08:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
heik New Friend Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brazil Posts: 35	Hi folks, I think we are missing a very important point here. That is the different meanings that same markings get depending on historical period. Besides that, if we understand the exact meaning of the word stacatto being literally "separated" and NOT short, a whole new perspective opens up. LONG notes can also be separated from one another. A dot over a half note on Beethoven will assume a very different meaning than a dot over a stravinsky eight note. Stacatto is much more a matter of space between notes than it is of the shortness of notes themselves! IMHO of course! As for the > and ^ markings, I totaly agree with what has been stated by posts before mine. Just my two cents! Great thread BTW. Best to all, Heinz Karl

11-29-2006, 08:51 PM	#14 (permalink)
heik New Friend Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brazil Posts: 35	Hi, with his last post Mr. Manny just touched on points I felt needed to be touched. As always, well said. And very generous also! Thanks for that. Heinz Karl

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