B15M

If Bach owns WWBW then they are essentially selling direct. It was hard before for the little guy to compete, just wait.

Siegtrmpt

This strike has been going on much longer than I would have guessed. The wages they're talking about are a maximum of $21/hr. and reduced benefits. Even if they get a little more it's going to take years to recoup 7-8 months of lost wages. From the reports it looks to me like Conn-Selmer has moved on and has no intention of settling the strike. I feel for the folks that have spent their lives working there and consider the work situation and company offers bad enough to warrant not going back to it. I'm not sure about the corporate greed angle with this either. While they may be a bunch of greedy prick$ it also may simply not make economic sense to attempt to continue manufacturing at the wages Americans require to live. Bad situation either way.

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Bill S.- NY Bach 6, 38 Mt. Vernon 43 Bach "C" cornet, NY Bach trombone 6vii Monette mouthpieces

Late_Bloomer

If a deal is made. I just don't see WWBW selling Yamaha equipments or are they going to sell strictly Conn-Selmer instruments?

Marc

rjzeller

...It did happen to me, too, when I worked for IBM. It cost me nearly every penny I had. I was out of work for 14 months. But instead of whining about it at the time, I accepted the situation. That included working part-time at a local school so I wouldn't have to take as much unemployment while I searched for a new job.

My next full time job was a total piece of crap, but it paid the bills (at a 20% reduction in salary).

I have left that job a year ago, and now I'm in a job I never would have been in had I stayed at IBM, and this just is INIFINTELY better. It took me four years to get here, but got here I did, and I had two kids at the time as well.

So my perspective is about as rounded as I think it can get.

Are the corporations greedy? Some of them, yes, very much so. But why let them treat you that way? My former employer paid crap and gave terrible benefits, so I left (and with no degree and already one layoff and 14 months out of work, my resume did not make for easy finds). If you refuse to empower yourself, then I guess I don't know what to say.

I've worked three jobs, including a full time job, to make ends meet sometimes. You do what you have to do. If the company you're working for has already shown it doesn't respect you by continuously cutting salary and benefits, do you really want to stay there?

I dunno. As for 29 year, I totally understand it's tough finding new work. My father has 29 years at IBM and is facing the same circumstance. but I've seen people older manage it. And as for my father, well, he's not worried, since he spent the first 28 years of that time at IBM saving for retirement. If he doesn't find a job, he'll retire and get by. If you didn't spend that time saving, is that the corporation's fault?

Maybe, if they cut your retirement out, which if they do so IS a valid reason for complaint. Allthough, in most such cases, the Federal Government has programs that take over those funds and pay at least most of it out to the affected retirees anyway.

Look, business like IBM and Conn-Selmer suck. They treat the majority of their employees like commodities instead of partners, and they have gotten into the business of cutting and cutting. I wouldn't go back to IBM, even they DO pay $80 or $90 grand to their employees. I'll take half that amount and live happy with an employer who treats me right and gives me raises, even if I am still below the industry average. I think eventually those practices will catch up with them, becuase the negative PR, the unwillingness of employees to endorse them, the loss of QA when they start experiencing high turnover, ultimately will shrink their market-share and create a significant impact on their competitiveness.

But if you're smart, you won't stick around to witness the fall first-hand.

__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who do not.

Tootsall

RJ, you said a mouthfull! You have to be careful to save when you are earning... don't be always buying the newest model car, biggest HDTV, mortgaging yourself to the hilt and living off credit cards "to be paid back on payday". Yes, it can be difficult to live within your means but living on borrowed money is absolutely deadly and leaves you with NO options (except maybe declaring bankruptcy). If YOU don't look after Number 1... then who will? Use your youth to invest in yourself rather than indulge yourself; that investment will pay off later in life.

I also got the axe many years ago when the oil and gas industry was struggling through a "rationalization". I was able to use my severance package to go back to school and pick up a second degree in management. As a "minor" it was only two years of school. That second degree made it SO much easier to find work (where I'm now within 6 years of mandatory retirement and a lot less than that if I choose).

On the issue of Selmer/Bach vs Yamaha... I could be wrong but my experience with shops here in Canada is that Yamaha do NOT want to put their horns in a retail outlet alongside Bach. I know of one store who was told that if they wanted to sell Yamaha they'd have to drop their association with Boosey & Hawkes (probably a good thing since B&H weren't exactly high quality at the time). The other "major" that I've visited in Calgary sells Selmer-Bach (now UMI-Bach) but does not sell Yamaha. The only "major" brand that I've ever seen alongside Yamaha is Jupiter.

I can't imagine Yamaha willing to dilute their market by "helping out" WWBW, especially if they were owned by the competition!

gzent

I have shopped in several music stores here in MN that sell Bach and Yamaha, and a larger one that sells Bach, Bnege, Getzen, King, Selmer, and Yamaha.

__________________
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation

Eclipsehornplayer

I can certainly respect what your saying.

You do need to keep in mind however that eveyone who goes through something like what you, I, and countless others have been through has different circumstances which affect what is and is not available and/or acceptable to them.

Sometimes it's just not as cut and dried as the picture your painting.

Either way; I agree with you for the most part.

Congrats on bettering your situtation; I'm still working on mine!

__________________
Eclipse MHY Bb Trumpet with interchangable leadpipes
Bach 229 25A C Trumpet
Getzen Capri Bb Cornet
GR & Monette mouthpieces

gzent

People need to realize that there is no company loyality in large corporations.

When the business that you work for is "merged", "absorbed", "acquired", "eaten up" by a larger company, almost without exception, things will get worse for the workers and its time to look for a new job.

That's reality and no amount of pro-union rhetoric can change it.

__________________
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation

rjzeller

yeah, King, I know my words were a bit strong. They were meant to be -- not to be rude, but just because that's what is needed sometimes.

Nobody had worse financial status than I. And being out of work for over a year really did a number on me -- I'm still at LEAST two years away from being debt free, and my credit rating is the pits. But I never gave up, and never expected the government or anyone else to step in for me.

but you're right, each situation is indeed unique. I'll cede that it's a tad unfair to blanket all persons with the same expectation. The only problem is that that is exactly what the unions do when they decide to strike. I guess my real issue is that we seem too quick to raise the banner of being oppressed before we stop to consider not just all sides of an issue, but all relevant options as well. It's much easier to be the victim and hate the big guy.

And like Greg said, there is no loyalty in large corporations these days (in fact, an honest analysis would reveal that there isn't much personal loyalty either..all things, it seems, go both ways).

The Yamaha stance seems a bit stodgy to me, but I know the electronics arm of Yamaha also has firm restrictions on how its product is marketed, so it wouldn't suprise me. Though I know Groth music sells Bach and Yamaha and Getzen (at least, they used to), and other local shops here in town do as well.

Bach's ego is bigger than it deserves, and wwbw sounds like they've really slid the last few years. Too bad, because when one inept entity purchases another inept entity, it can't lead to good results....

__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who do not.

B15M

The whole thing is supply and demand. If you need a job badly enough you will work for little.
If the boss needs a worker badly he has to pay.

If a store owner has a small business and it gets a little busy so he hires a sweeper 3 days a week, does he owe the sweeper anything but the wage?

If it gets more busy and he needs the sweeper 5 days a week, does he owe more then the wage.

It got very busy and the sweeper is now a clerk and there is another sweeper 3 times a week. Does he owe this clerk more?

Lets say for five years he gave the clerk a raise and on year six he said, "My kids need braces and my wife needs a new car and with the new baby I need a bigger house so, no raise this year."

Did he owe that clerk a raise? Didn't he help the clerk become what he is? Can't the clerk quit and get another job for more money?

Should the clerk and the sweeper form a union and squeeze the owner for a raise?

If they do can't the owner hire two other guys to feed his family too?

Where is it written that the owner owes the help anything? If he wants to keep the help and have them do a good job, he will pay. If they don't like the pay they will get another job. Who came up with the idea of standing outside with a sign? It's idiotic!!