Siegtrmpt

This explains things some.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com...m.asp?ID=20865

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Bill S.- NY Bach 6, 38 Mt. Vernon 43 Bach "C" cornet, NY Bach trombone 6vii Monette mouthpieces

wrbandel

Let's not forget that businesses are in the business of making money. Period.

It's not like the old days when loyalty went both ways. You worked hard for a company they would reward you during and after your working years. Now you need to look out for yourself, save as much as you can and not count on any business when your retire.

Warren

Eclipsehornplayer

You're probably right; and again I commend you for keeping at it. Lord knows it's difficult to come back from what at the time appears to be the ultimate knockout blow!

I'd be inclined to possibly disagee with you but it matters not. I'm sure we can all compare our scars as it were. For what it's worth I'm a divorced/re-married father of 3 with a pyscho ex-wife. I could write a book about how the Michigan courts screwed me after loosing my job and what financial hardships my wife and I had to endure at their hands. I was threatend with jail even though I'm a model father and in 10 years of paying child support had never been late once. It didn't matter to the Michigan courts that I was starving; and unable to pay my bills to live. They wanted what I had previously been paying while I was employed or I was going to jail.

This is why I'm in Georgia. I got a job @ $15,000.00 a year less pay As I can't get a job in Michigan because what few jobs their are usually require no less then a bachelors degree. I have none; just 14 years expirence which in any other state works just fine. I pay the same amount for my children; whom I love dearly! But know that I am still suffering.

I guess I'm a bit bitter about it; but you now know why.

This is why I said,"each situation is unique." And you obviously saw that.

As for the Bach discussion sooner or later one side has to give like it or not. In most cases; and especially in today's economy it's more then likely going to be the workers.

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tpter1

Having been involved oin contract negotiations as a commitee member on the part of a union, I can say that concessions must be made. They must be made on both sides of the table. Workers deserve a fair and reasonable wage that keeps pace with inflation. They deserve working conditions that are safe. They deserve to be able to come in to work, collect their paycheck when they are supposed to, and take care of their family. They deserve fair compensation for overtime, and opportunities for advancement within the company structure. They deserve to be able to take time for being sick, to care for loved ones when they are sick, time to mourn the passing of a family member all without fear of retributiuon or loss of wages for circumstances beyond their control. As does any of the administration of a business. They need to know that when they come to work on Monday, their job will be there. If they are to be terminated for whatever reason, they should have sufficent time to find suitable employment.

Issues are not as black and white as they might seem. Not being an employee of the company, I can't say for certain what all of the issues related to the work stoppage are, but work stoppages are never approached in a haphazard and impulsive manner. Perhaps they had been negotiating a contract and the administration would not negotiate in good faith. Perhaps there was no contract for many, many months. They decided that it would be better to not work than to work under current conditions, so it could not have been trivial.

Were it not for sign-carrying and striking, working conditions in this nation of ours would most likely not have improved beyond the sweat-shop practices of the turn of the 20th c.

Maybe, if Bach takes over WWBW their service will improve. I cannot say for certain. It can't get much worse; that I know.

__________________
-Glenn
"Roses have thorns; shining waters mud. Clouds and eclipses stain the moon and the sun; and history reeks of the wrongs we have done. After today, after today, consider me gone."- Sting

B15M

[quote=Kinghornplayer;280616] For what it's worth I'm a divorced/re-married father of 3 with a pyscho ex-wife. I could write a book about how the Michigan courts screwed me after loosing my job and what financial hardships my wife and I had to endure at their hands. I was threatend with jail even though I'm a model father and in 10 years of paying child support had never been late once. It didn't matter to the Michigan courts that I was starving; and unable to pay my bills to live. They wanted what I had previously been paying while I was employed or I was going to jail.

I guess I'm a bit bitter about it; but you now know why.

quote]


This is a change of subject but reading your post I was getting madder and madder.

I went through the same thing. (Ct. courts)
I guess those old feelings will never go away.

I should PM you with the story. Let me know if your interested.

ROGERIO

Bill,

I agree completely with your statement. This is slightly off subject but did anyone see the news this morning about how much Americans pay to these "check in advance" stores?? A very high percentage of Americans are upside down financially... well, regardless how much money companies are making these days they too are way out of the safety zone financially. The few companies that can are going private so they don't have to answer to the devil (Wall Street)...

I feel for these workers, but the sign of the times have been flashing for a long time.... the only real "security" is the one you build yourself.

Unions? Well, I've seen a lot of abuse ... when I worked on the east coast (AZ is not a big union state), I worked in a union environment... my desk was a union desk and I enjoyed the benefits associated with that.... but I also saw a lot of workers taking full + advantage of union protection. In other words, they did just enough work to not get written-up.... and as long as they were vocal the company left them alone in fear of being targeted for singling out individuals.

This is a crazy time for american labor. Bill... you are so right on... americans need a lot of money to "survive" these days... what was once luxury is now a requirement... a new SUV every 2-3 years, etc etc... the list is long... plus, there is a "you owe me attitude" that leaves me sick...

You can find me hiding under my desk for a few days.... I have a feeling a few of you didn't like "my" truth...

Siegtrmpt

You make some pretty good points about needs vs. wants. As you know I'm all for having fun things but it's never a good idea to go indo debt for toys. Far too many people buy stuff they really don't need and take on a lot of debt that will haunt them for a long time to come.

I'm concerned that we can't build things in this country anymore and sell them for a profit. We have a lot of requirements on employers that costs a lot of money. It seems the press always trys to characterize it as the company paying for it but ultimately the consumer pays the freight for it through the purchase price. If the cost is too high there are always the imports that are made in countries without similar requirements. Often there is no way to compete. Bad scene.

__________________
Bill S.- NY Bach 6, 38 Mt. Vernon 43 Bach "C" cornet, NY Bach trombone 6vii Monette mouthpieces

Dave Mickley

several people hit the nail on the head with needs vs wants - when I grew up in the 50's it was rare for families to have two cars and they kept the car a long time. we only bought an used car and would keep it until it really needed work. when I joined the band in the 5th grade I bought my cornet with my paper route money [$50]. we were expected to mow the yard, do the dishes, take out the trash and do other things around the house for no allowance.when we went on vacation we visited relatives - no going to hotels or resorts, we ate out maybe three or four times a year. you know what, we were happy. the well off had two cars and only one of them was a new one, the good car was passed down and the old car was traded in. the person was right when they said there a sense of loyalty between the employer and the employee. times change and it seems like the stock holders are running the corporations instead of the CEO's now. oh well just some ramblings of an old geezer. Dave

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formerly known as old geezer Dave
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robertwhite

A lot of interesting personal anecdotes in this discussion.

For me it comes down to this - Bach is the most profitable sector of an incredibly profitable coorporation. There was no good reason to cut wages and benefits. Just greed.

I get weary seeing people dog on the union as if it's to blame for slacker workers. I've seen slacker workers in every single job I've ever had. Companies should deal with that by hiring better workers in the first place. There will always be people who take advantage of protections - that doesn't make the protections wrong in principle.

ROGERIO

Robert, You are correct and it wasn't my intent to bash unions. It was merely an observation. In MY case, MY environment (at that time) there were folks who openly bragged about the protection they received from the union. Someone mentioned how much unions have done to take us out of the (labor) dark ages... very true. But we are no longer in the dark ages... individuals in the work place need to take pride and responsibility for themselves (value). It was mentioned by someone else that if you don't think you are getting paid what you are worth, make your case... if it doesn't stick then move on a seek the pay elsewhere... no one is obligated to stay in one job... just as an employeer is not obligated to pay everyone what THEY thing they are worth.

Back under the desk. LOL