A general post about nothing important - Page 2

wiseone2 · 10-22-2006, 08:53 AM

Sam Krauss experimented with annealing horns in the 50s. Sam used a hand held blowtorch. He was way ahead of his time. His treated horns were ugly, but he could tune them to suit the individual player's needs.
Wilmer

Eclipsehornplayer · 10-23-2006, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpter1

So would I, B15. So would I. I know that things are done in a different process.

I did a google search on Cryogenic treatment of brass instruments and came up with this:

ncrease resistance to abrasive wear
Requires only one permanent treatment
Changes the entire grain structure of the metal, not just the surfaces
Refinishing or regrinds do not affect permanent improvements
Eliminates thermal shock through a dry, computer controlled process
Transforms most retained austenite to hard martensite
Forms micro-fine carbide fillers to enhance carbide structures
Increases durability and wear life
Decreases residual stresses in tool steels
Decreases brittleness
Increases tensile strength, toughness and stability
Relaxes internal stresses
Works on new or used tools
Reduced down time, less maintenance and higher productivity
Deep cryo processing is compatible with other treatments (TiN, Chrome, Teflon etc.)
High alloy steel cutting tools stay sharper longer, fewer micro-cracks, less chipping
Results in the orderly arrangement of crystals, increases internal bonding energy, and achieves a structural balance throughout the mass of the material

which I copied and pased from http://www.cryoplus.com/advantages.html

How is it different from exposing to an overnight temp of 25F? I don't know.

I don't know mabe it's just me but as I read the above list it occurs to me that if you keep your horn polished; oiled, and in it's case when not played you can accomplish most of the listed points...

Hummmmmmmm!

brian moon · 10-23-2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B15M

A while back there was a post about this on TH.

I asked my brother who has his doctorate in physics from Brown University and he told me that it does nothing to the brass. I didn't ask about the idea of bonding one metal to another. He said the only way to change the brass is to heat it.

Here is the question; how do you heat the brass enough to change the properties without melting the solder holding it together?

#1) That guy's brother is either ignorant or didn't understand the question. Leave it outside for the month of February, or in a meat freezer, and see what it is like afterwards. It will be hard and brittle.

#2) Very carefully. When a bell is annealed sometimes the rim needs to be re-soldered afterwards.

B15M · 10-23-2006, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian moon

#1) That guy's brother is either ignorant or didn't understand the question. Leave it outside for the month of February, or in a meat freezer, and see what it is like afterwards. It will be hard and brittle.

#2) Very carefully. When a bell is annealed sometimes the rim needs to be re-soldered afterwards.

He did understand the question and he is not ignorant.

I know there people still freezing their trumpets but it does not change the properties of the brass. People still do it because other people will pay them to.

I have left my Bach trumpet in the car for long periods and nothing happened. I keep my Bach cornet in the car full time, summer and winter. I use it to play on the road. Nothing has changed. It gets very cold in the winter and I put the heat vent on it to warm it up before I play it. Nothing ever happened. I have been doing this with the cornet for about ten years. It's not brittle and it plays just like it did when it was new.

gzent · 10-23-2006, 12:18 PM

Cryogenic 'treatments' do nothing but relieve the customer of money.

But don't take my word, read Thomas Moore's article in the June 2004 ITG Journal.

brian moon · 10-23-2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpter1

I did a google search on Cryogenic treatment of brass instruments and came up with this: http://www.cryoplus.com/advantages.html[/url]

How is it different from exposing to an overnight temp of 25F? I don't know.

It is faster. I think that one would need more days at a winter temperature that at absolute zero.

brian moon · 10-23-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eisprl

Grain structure, thermal shock, austenite, martensite, carbide structures, tensile strength, crystals, bonding energy????

Is it just me? I don't think any normal "Joe shmo" trumpet player would know or even care what all that means? I think one of the only points I understood was "Increases durability and wear life"

Seems kind of sketchy to me

Eric

In other words: "Makes it harder".

brian moon · 10-23-2006, 01:27 PM

never mind

Dale Proctor · 10-23-2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B15M

Last night was the first night of the show and we never made it through the show in rehearsal. We were playing stuff that we never played before and the kids on stage never heard before. It was amazing how well the orchestra adjusted.....The big problem was when the kids on stage skipped beats and measures. I was surprised how quickly the orchestra adjusted. The conductor just gave us the new measure number and we were on our way again....

Not ever making it through the whole show in a rehearsal is not a good thing. Like you said, the orchestra and the folks on stage are charting new territory during the performance! You know you're playing with a pretty good group when something gets fouled up and the group can come back together, all in the same place. You know you're playing with a REALLY good group when nothing gets fouled up in the first place.

The whole thing about cold and heat is not a big deal. Your trumpet is a piece of metal! Sure, 1000 degrees will ruin your horn, but 130 degrees in the trunk in summer, or -10 degrees in winter??? No, the only things these temperatures will hurt are your slide grease and valve oil (and your lip, if you touch a -10 mouthpiece). Cryogenics for trumpets is voodoo.

B15M · 10-23-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian moon

In other words: "Makes it harder".

I think the general idea these days is to make the brass softer.

10-22-2006, 08:53 AM	#11 (permalink)
wiseone2 Artitst in Residence Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brooklyn,NY Posts: 2,366	Sam Krauss experimented with annealing horns in the 50s. Sam used a hand held blowtorch. He was way ahead of his time. His treated horns were ugly, but he could tune them to suit the individual player's needs. Wilmer __________________ Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear. S.Suark 1951

10-23-2006, 12:18 PM	#15 (permalink)
gzent Forte User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 1,515	Cryogenic 'treatments' do nothing but relieve the customer of money. But don't take my word, read Thomas Moore's article in the June 2004 ITG Journal. __________________ Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revalation And the mind's true liberation

10-23-2006, 01:27 PM	#18 (permalink)
brian moon Mezzo Piano User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bloomfield Township, Mich Posts: 565	never mind __________________ Revelation 3:20 Last edited by brian moon; 10-23-2006 at 01:30 PM.

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