Originally Posted by Patric_Bernard

Ok now i'm sure your not even reading my full posts. I never said you can't make money. Make all the money you want for all I care, the more the merrier. Your saying if ALL you do is play then you should get paid, and i agree. But if you worked full time somewhere else, you probably wouldn't play gigs much anywhere because they weren't paying, or atleast thats the midset you have.

Originally Posted by Hags888

Patric...I seriously think you are confusing the world of amateur/semi-professional players, and full-time professional players. There is a distinct difference between these two musical worlds. One does it for a hobby, for the love of doing it, etc. The other may do it because they love it, or maybe they do it because they are good at it, or maybe they do it, because they are expected to do it, etc. I'll let you sort which of those examples belongs in the amateur vs professional realm.

But, you're fundamentally missing the point of what it means to be a professional musician. If someone has a regular day job, and then gigs and performs on the weekends, I would classify that as either semi-professional playing or amateur playing (it largely depends on the ensembles they are playing in). But heck, you can be a professional musician and not spend all your time performing. Many of us teach in addition to playing, or do arranging, etc. But most professional musicians make the vast majority of their income from musical sources.

But to suggest that musicians should only perform music because they "love to perform" is naive and unrealistic. And to further suggest that musicians should then not be paid if they have a day job is just ridiculous. I know lots of freelancers in the Twin Cities who are monster musicians, performing at a professional level, and they hold down non-music day jobs. Some of them perform for free and some of them don't, but to expect them to play for free is to misunderstand, basically, the way the entire music world operates, IMO.

Just so I'm clear, is it your ideal and intention in posting this ridiculous thread, to suggest that all musicians should simply perform because they "love it", and then if they don't have a non-music job to support themselves financially, they should stand on a street corner with a hat out while they are playing to try to make a living instead? Or if they're playing in an ensemble the ensemble should have a hat/tip jar out? If that is indeed what you think, then I can honestly say, I have nothing else to say to you.

Some rock musician once said when asked if they had "sold out", "Of course, we sell out stadiums every night." If you don't think that musicians provide a service worthy enough of being paid, then that is your opinion. But I don't think it is one that will be shared by many on this forum.

Originally Posted by Patric_Bernard

again read my posts and read them correctly. I NEVER said you should play and NEVER get paid. I never said anything like that. I said Being a profesional musician isn't Working, such as manual labor, because you love doing it. If you love doing what you do, why is it work? why is it a job? Why is it a CHORE that you ahve to do every day of your life? Its not, its one of the greatest parts of your life.

Originally Posted by et_mike

Patric,

I think part of the problem is, you don't play music for a living. I'm sure all professional musicians wish what you say was the unadulterated truth... unfortunately common sense and and your ability to survive in the world come into play... those two things dictate that in order to survive in the modern "work place" as a professional musician, you are going to have to, at times, create music that you do not enjoy, in order to get paid... at that point, making, or playing, or creating music, no matter how much you love your horn, is probably not going to be any fun. You should pay close attention to what Wilmer and the others tell you. I know you eventually want to make music the center of your universe... I worry that if you go into with a bunch of idealistic thoughts that when it doesn't work out the way you hope, you will give up music and your horn all together.

Originally Posted by Patric_Bernard

again read my posts and read them correctly. I NEVER said you should play and NEVER get paid. I never said anything like that. I said Being a profesional musician isn't Working, such as manual labor, because you love doing it. If you love doing what you do, why is it work? why is it a job? Why is it a CHORE that you ahve to do every day of your life? Its not, its one of the greatest parts of your life.

Originally Posted by Jurandr

Who's to say you can't love manual labor? My uncle is a mechanic and he loves every moment of it....
Now that I think of it, he's a bit of a geek about it.

Originally Posted by et_mike

I think I finally understand where Patric is coming from... If you love what you are doing (playing trumpet, laying brick, flying airplanes) then you don't feel like you are working, because you love what you do... I think what everyone else is getting at is even if you are doing what you love for a living, at some point it becomes work. There are going to be days that you don't want to be there, but you have to... that is work. There are going to be times that you are doing what you love, but not under the circumstances you love...that makes it work. If I'm totally off on both accounts I apologize, but that is what I get out of the last 4 pages of commentary.

Originally Posted by Patric_Bernard

I think you nailed it right on the head.