My trumpet project - Page 3

bigaggietrumpet · 01-27-2005, 12:48 PM

Bandman-
Sorry, reading back over my post, I really didn't make my argument to well. Guess that's what I get for being up that late anyway. I agree with you 100% that Van should NOT give him the brochure. And I'll concede the point about the poor student.

My main problem is with this guy's attitude. Now, let's assume that Van does the adult and mature thing to do and just asks talks to this guy, similar to what Doc pointed out above. There are 2 options for this guy. The first, and the one that is ideal and makes the world happy, is that they come to an understanding. Van understands why the guy feels the way he does, and the director realizes that Van is a very talented 18 year old with an actual brain. Life goes on, nothing bad really happens. BUT, there is another possibility. In today's society, my generation has done SUCH a wonderful job of showing disrespect to our elders, showing we don't care about anybody else's ideas, that a lot of people discount us immediately as not being able to have an intelligent conversation. It is possible, and realize I don't like this thought, that the guy could interpret Van's attempt at reconciliation as an attempt to challenge and rebel. And then the very scenario that you depicted would occur. Stupid? Yes. Very stupid. But unfortunately, it's possible. I'm sad to say I've met some like that.

My point? You know, now that I think about it, I'm not real sure. It's not a pleasant situation. I think what I would probably do, is not just sit down and have one large conversation on all of this. I'd do it gradually. Continously show the guy that I knew what I was talking about.

But yeah, throwing the brochure in his face....not so much of a good idea.

bandman · 01-27-2005, 03:53 PM

Isn't it great that we might have different ways of resolving this issue, but we all have Van's best interest as our main concern!?!?!?! I know some other boards where the crowd would be gathering as they take him to be fed to the lions!

Manny Laureano · 01-27-2005, 05:20 PM

Bandman,

And THAT is the TM vibe that I'm talking about.

ML

gzent · 01-27-2005, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heavens2kadonka

Mr. Laureano,

I had been telling my students that if they wanted a trumpet, not to order it from WWBW, or buy from the local store (which has nothing). I told them that I knew some very personable dealers online that would get you a great horn at a very reasonable price.

The band director at the school I teach came up to me about two weeks ago, saying something to the effect of "I shouldn't fill my students' heads with this hogwash." He said that for $1050, a B&S Intermediate is the best that can be got, essentially stating that I was a moron for thinking otherwise. It didn't help that he started this little confrontation by telling me that my Olds Ambassador that I am loaning to a student was "A piece of junk." It also doesn't help that he's a euphonium player.

I'm still bristling thinking about it.

I may be only 18 years old, just really taking off the training wheels out in the big scary world. He may be a 43 year old band director with a Masters degree, and years of experience on the road, with directing and performing experience out of his ears. However, I just don't think the man is correct in assuming what comes out of the WWBW catalogue is the absolute best deal available.

Thats why I have to create this booklet. I cannot stand for people like that to push young players into the horns that are immediately available, when they could have done better.

Why just do something when it can be done better? Isn't that the whole ideal behind music?

Van

Well, Van you are on the right side of this battle and his ignorance is obvious. Remember the old saying about a little knowledge being dangerous? Well, in this guy's case its deadly. He actually said "B&S Intermediate is the best that can be got"?? Unbelievable!

Let's talk about some real values on new horns:

First, anything made in the Kanstul factory. All the guys who are old horn junkies, like Tom Turner, can tell you that Kanstul makes very high quality horns, and he makes a lot of horns for a lot of different brands. That said, you can buy a new Zeus, which is basically a Bach Strad knock-off made by Kanstul, for $1075 brand new. I've had mine for two years and no way in H I'd trade it for a new Bach or Yamaha!!

Kanstul also makes an Olds type of horn I believe called the KTR 700 that sells for under $1000 and has been favorably reviewed.( See Pick music)

But hey, don't take my word for it, find a Kanstul or Zeus dealer and play the horns for yourself back to back against a new Bach or Yamaha and ask yourself why pay the extra cash?

Now, what about used horns?

Again, anything made by Kanstul and there are a bunch of them, Kanstul, Burbank, Callet, Zeus, F. Besson (stamped Kanstul on valves) , Wild Thing, etc. A solid used example of any of these (except WT and Callet) can be found for well under $1000.

Benge's made before Zig Kanstul left Benge in the 70's. There are a ton of them and they can be found for $500 just about anywhere.

Anything made by Olds with a serial number under 200,000 or so ~ late fifties. These horns were amazing. I bought a 56 Olds Ambassador a few weeks ago that plays good, has nice fast valves and better intonation than any horn I've ever played. All for $135!!!

Older used Bach Strads (197? or earlier).

Older King Silverflares (1960's or earlier).

Older used Getzen Severensen horns (Mid 1970's or earlier).

Older Connstellation's, Martin's and so on.

These are a few ideas, not everything, to get you started. Between ebay, TrumpetMaster and TrumpetHerald you can find just about all the info you need to 'educate' your director.

Good luck,

Greg

student trumpet · 01-27-2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandman

Studenttrumpet's comment "A degree doesn't mean a thing, what matters is if you can teach or not." is also out of line. Heavens2kadonkas never questioned his abilities, in fact he stated that he is ".... a 43 year old band director with a Masters degree, and years of experience on the road, with directing and performing experience out of his ears." I think that a degree and experience does make a lot of difference, of course that statement comes from a guy with years of band directing and playing experience.

I am sorry that I offended you. I wasn't talking about H2K's Band Teacher I was talking more in general. You sound like an Awsome band teacher because you care about you students. What I meant was teacher's like trickg's. I also was talking about teachers who put no effort into teaching. For instance in band I have watched 5-7 movies only 1 had anything to do with music. I am sorry that what I said may have offended you or other band teachers. Yes a degree does make a difference. I didn't mean to hurt anyones feelings please forgive me.

humblely,

Student Trumpet

Heavens2kadonka · 01-27-2005, 09:19 PM

Ahh, see what happenes when I don't get a chance to check whats going on a whole day?

I apologize for the slowness, ladies and gentlemen, but i was doing my part as a "Band Ambassador" today.

I haven't yet had the chance to read all of these posts, so I'll start by my reply to Bandman.

Quote:

I do have a very, very, very, very, strong opinion on this thread. I'm one of those "old band directors" with over 25-years of experience. I have built a band program of over 400 students and turned out fabulous students for years. My students have played in district level and all state honor bands, and many have gone on to major in music. Many of my former students have fulfilled every teacher/performers dream in that they have become better players than their teacher.

As a young 18-year-old I'm sure I knew everything, in fact I knew I knew everything. Wow! Let me tell you how much smarter all those old band directors and private teachers got as I got older! I suggest that instead of trying to prove the teacher wrong, that you sit down with him and take advantage of his experience and find out why he feels the way he does. Then explain your points to him, in an adult like, professional manner, and have a discussion with him pro to pro.

As time has gone on, and my health has started to fail, I have brought in young people like you to help out. Let me tell you that as one of those "old guys" that if you made and attempt to prove me wrong with the attitude that came off in the posts in this thread that I would listen to you, examine your findings to see if there was something I could learn from them, and then I would pull all of my band students from your studio. Chances are that you would also be "black-balled" from taking students in the schools where my friends teach, and may I remind you that the music community is a tight community. You may be taking a chance with your future by moving forward with what I am seeing as a bizarre show of extreme attitude.

Remember that right does not always equal might. So if you are right do you think this teacher will actually change what he suggests for his students? Instead, work with him and find out what his favorite horns are, and work with him within his boundaries.

A few final comments -- blutch's comment about euphonium players "does not compute" to use his words. There are man fine euphonium players in this world who are very fine band directors. Over the years players like Falcone, Ray Young, and Roger Berand, to name a few, were considered among America's elite musicians and music educators.

Studenttrumpet's comment "A degree doesn't mean a thing, what matters is if you can teach or not." is also out of line. Heavens2kadonkas never questioned his abilities, in fact he stated that he is ".... a 43 year old band director with a Masters degree, and years of experience on the road, with directing and performing experience out of his ears." I think that a degree and experience does make a lot of difference, of course that statement comes from a guy with years of band directing and playing experience.

In closing, I have been impressed with your posts since I have been reading this board. You seem like a nice young musician with a great future in our business. I would hate for you to say or do something that might affect your future. Sometimes even when you are correct it is best not to prove it! Remember that music is a largely ego driven profession. Step on the wrong ego and in the future you may find yourself without a job. Remember that band directors (and music supervisors) talk among each other. You don’t need to get a bad reputation, even if you are right about something. You have many years ahead of yourself to make your point by producing fabulous students, and by playing your rear-end off. You will get much more respect by producing validating results than by producing valid information.

I need to go ahead and tell you guys that I waited until I got online to vent my anger. I did not get into an argument with him during the conversation, because it would have got into my teaching time. At the time, I let what he said go. The more I have thought about it, though, the more its pissed me off. Not just because he disagrees with what I suggest, but the fact that the reason he disagrees with me is based on my age. I despise being taken lightly because of my age, especially when its over something I have really, REALLY done homework on (If you look around, you will find that the WWBW actually ISN'T the absolute best place to get a $1050 trumpet).

However, I don't want to sit down and tell him he's wrong without producing something to back my argument up. Thats why I want to create this book. That, and now that I think about it, this may turn out to be a pretty fun little project...

Going slightly off on a tangent, its sometimes so aggravating, how if I was 40 and said the exact same thing I say now, people would take it with more seriousness, it seems like. Most people my age are out drinking, having unprotected sex, or something equally stupid. I am out giving lessons (Actually, at this store I teach at in Lebanon, I'm replacing a fellow twice my age who ducked out of the position because he was not paying overhead to the store. He just didn't go to his lessons one day, and hasn't been seen since), learning piano, percussion, as well as trying to work up a decent singing voice, AND learning the Farkas embochure (Lets not forget the other classes I take as part of my major). I don't like feeling as if I'm being but in the same boat as the "others." Sorry if I am misinterpretting something, but thats *SUCH* a pet peeve with me...

Van

Heavens2kadonka · 01-27-2005, 09:34 PM

Gosh, this topic has pulled a lot of replies!

This director in question I do have a lot, A LOT of professional respect for. He played with my current turmpet instructor in the Jack Daniels band, and he was counted among the finest players in the US armed serices. He went to these really special ensembles in the Navy band, though I cannot remember the name of it.

Yes, I do very much see everyone's point in not directly challenging authority, and in retrospect, I am very glad I am not a confrontational person.

This requires another reply in a minute, sorry for all the replies in a row, but my connection is so slow and unreliable...

Van

Heavens2kadonka · 01-27-2005, 09:56 PM

Yeah, I think that just making this booklet (I don't want it in a brochure format) just to spite him would not have good results. Actually, I have had this idea imbedded in my head since I read Jim Donaldson's take on what Bb you should buy, and thinking I could do a better job, lol. This little confrontation actually has been whats given me the real initiative to do it. I am actually thinking about getting it put online...

About the band director. Even though I have respect professionally for the man, I don't have *ANY* personal respect for him now. Anyone that basically charges up to me, says

"We need to get (kid) a new horn, that one you're letting him use is a piece of junk."

and then following it with

"And your ideas for getting them horns is bunk, the B&S Intermediate out of the WWBW catalogue is the best deal out there, and having them do these wild goose chases like you do is not the way they should go."

Does not make me like a person very well..

HOWEVER, I should not let this be my only motivation for undertaking this project, right?

You guys are awesome, thanks for being here, lol.

Van

MUSICandCHARACTER · 01-27-2005, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heavens2kadonka

I am actually thinking about getting it put online...

I have the webspace

Jim

bandman · 01-27-2005, 11:01 PM

Van,

I guess I've said what I have to say, but I'm going to ask you one more time, please don't go to this guy trying to prove your point. A young person like you has a lot to offer. Yes, I respect you for the positive things you are doing with your life and they are exactly why I'm asking you not to jeopardize your future based upon an argument driven by pride.

There are more important times to fight a battle, and yes, you might be on the right side of this battle. Don't ever forget that you may have to lose a battle or two to win the war.

Keep your mouth shut and use your influence as a private teacher and help these kids be the best players they can be. If you mess with him, and then lose students out of your studio because you took a stand, the students are the ones hurt - not the teacher.

I wish you luck, but hope that you back off of your position and let the older gentleman take the lead with this issue. Like I said, you may win the battle, but you're going to lose the war. The real loser will be the students who will lose you as their instructor.

01-27-2005, 12:48 PM	#21 (permalink)
bigaggietrumpet Mezzo Forte User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: College Station,TX Posts: 814	Bandman- Sorry, reading back over my post, I really didn't make my argument to well. Guess that's what I get for being up that late anyway. I agree with you 100% that Van should NOT give him the brochure. And I'll concede the point about the poor student. My main problem is with this guy's attitude. Now, let's assume that Van does the adult and mature thing to do and just asks talks to this guy, similar to what Doc pointed out above. There are 2 options for this guy. The first, and the one that is ideal and makes the world happy, is that they come to an understanding. Van understands why the guy feels the way he does, and the director realizes that Van is a very talented 18 year old with an actual brain. Life goes on, nothing bad really happens. BUT, there is another possibility. In today's society, my generation has done SUCH a wonderful job of showing disrespect to our elders, showing we don't care about anybody else's ideas, that a lot of people discount us immediately as not being able to have an intelligent conversation. It is possible, and realize I don't like this thought, that the guy could interpret Van's attempt at reconciliation as an attempt to challenge and rebel. And then the very scenario that you depicted would occur. Stupid? Yes. Very stupid. But unfortunately, it's possible. I'm sad to say I've met some like that. My point? You know, now that I think about it, I'm not real sure. It's not a pleasant situation. I think what I would probably do, is not just sit down and have one large conversation on all of this. I'd do it gradually. Continously show the guy that I knew what I was talking about. But yeah, throwing the brochure in his face....not so much of a good idea. __________________ Michael Smith Hullabaloo: The official band of Texas A&M Basketball Kanstul 1537/ Schilke 14 LA Olds Studio

01-27-2005, 03:53 PM	#22 (permalink)
bandman Forte User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Lafayette, LA, USA Posts: 1,040	Isn't it great that we might have different ways of resolving this issue, but we all have Van's best interest as our main concern!?!?!?! I know some other boards where the crowd would be gathering as they take him to be fed to the lions! __________________

01-27-2005, 09:34 PM	#27 (permalink)
Heavens2kadonka Forte User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Carthage, TN Posts: 1,283	Gosh, this topic has pulled a lot of replies! This director in question I do have a lot, A LOT of professional respect for. He played with my current turmpet instructor in the Jack Daniels band, and he was counted among the finest players in the US armed serices. He went to these really special ensembles in the Navy band, though I cannot remember the name of it. Yes, I do very much see everyone's point in not directly challenging authority, and in retrospect, I am very glad I am not a confrontational person. This requires another reply in a minute, sorry for all the replies in a row, but my connection is so slow and unreliable... Van __________________ Stage 1 California Light '94 Bach Strad 37 1900 Eb Cornet LOUD Steve Patrick 10 1/2 C LOUD LM93

01-27-2005, 09:56 PM	#28 (permalink)
Heavens2kadonka Forte User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Carthage, TN Posts: 1,283	Yeah, I think that just making this booklet (I don't want it in a brochure format) just to spite him would not have good results. Actually, I have had this idea imbedded in my head since I read Jim Donaldson's take on what Bb you should buy, and thinking I could do a better job, lol. This little confrontation actually has been whats given me the real initiative to do it. I am actually thinking about getting it put online... About the band director. Even though I have respect professionally for the man, I don't have ANY personal respect for him now. Anyone that basically charges up to me, says "We need to get (kid) a new horn, that one you're letting him use is a piece of junk." and then following it with "And your ideas for getting them horns is bunk, the B&S Intermediate out of the WWBW catalogue is the best deal out there, and having them do these wild goose chases like you do is not the way they should go." Does not make me like a person very well.. HOWEVER, I should not let this be my only motivation for undertaking this project, right? You guys are awesome, thanks for being here, lol. Van __________________ Stage 1 California Light '94 Bach Strad 37 1900 Eb Cornet LOUD Steve Patrick 10 1/2 C LOUD LM93

01-27-2005, 11:01 PM	#30 (permalink)
bandman Forte User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Lafayette, LA, USA Posts: 1,040	Van, I guess I've said what I have to say, but I'm going to ask you one more time, please don't go to this guy trying to prove your point. A young person like you has a lot to offer. Yes, I respect you for the positive things you are doing with your life and they are exactly why I'm asking you not to jeopardize your future based upon an argument driven by pride. There are more important times to fight a battle, and yes, you might be on the right side of this battle. Don't ever forget that you may have to lose a battle or two to win the war. Keep your mouth shut and use your influence as a private teacher and help these kids be the best players they can be. If you mess with him, and then lose students out of your studio because you took a stand, the students are the ones hurt - not the teacher. I wish you luck, but hope that you back off of your position and let the older gentleman take the lead with this issue. Like I said, you may win the battle, but you're going to lose the war. The real loser will be the students who will lose you as their instructor. __________________

01-27-2005, 05:20 PM	#23 (permalink)
Manny Laureano Utimate User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,989	Bandman, And THAT is the TM vibe that I'm talking about. ML

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