godchaser

.

Thanks nordland. That's not dissimilar to what i'm considering- the difference being a close repetition of what you describe. A pipe shaped like attached cones is accurate. Which comes to what Robin and kalijah are saying; that a high note needs less "fast-air", or quantity of 'air-flow' depending on the duration of the note', but more 'air-pressure'? Which amounts to lifelong Chops practice.

The myth's been proven a myth(?) -but i'm still left wondering whether trumpet design can increase the efficency of a players' original 'air-pressure' required to play in the high range? Which leans on fast air or an increased air velocity? -The myth's no myth at all, but moot point practically speaking? Jet engines, least to my understanding, use a repetitive cone design to create increased power. But it may well be that this doesn't amount to an increase of its air-velocity necessarily, despite an increased energy/power output? Its just using the air more efficently?

If a pipe design could enhance what the player's putting in at the mouthpiece, or increasing their power from the mouthpice to the bell. Would it be significant of any noticable difference of their own natural ability? Could they play with a seemingly greater air-pressure and air-volume?

kalijah.. anyone?


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nordlandstrompet

The myth is not completely busted yet. I think it stands as "plausible" at the moment.

Jet engine: Is also working more or less similar to the venturi.

But, I believe that tedh1951 is the most competent person on the forum to explain about how air flow is acting, as he is a Aircraft Maintenance Engineer and should know all the ways of manipulating the airflow.

By the way, did you try the mpc trick?

tedh1951, do you take the challenge?

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nordlands

"All music is folkmusic. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song?" Louis Armstrong

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godchaser

.

'..did you try the mpc trick?'

Indeed; i gather the reference nordland. Just not sure whether a close progression of conical pipe section'll respond similarly? If not, then an augmented 'fast air' depiction's up for debate? All be it another bread basket of "fast air", and unrelated to Robin's meaning. :)


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rowuk

This may not be quite "on subject" but it does show the effects of pressure waves at the bell of an instrument..............

YouTube - Trombone Mythbuster - demolish trombones on Beyond Tomorrow

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rowuk

Erik,
I am not sure if we can call tongue position a myth. Tooh, Taah, and Teeh are very well documented in Clarke, Arban, Irons and can be reproduced without too much difficulty. If they represent the "best", most "efficient" or "easiest" way to play is certainly subject to debate. Most every trumpet player does go through the Taah-ee-ahh stage when learning lip slurs and trills. Nick Drozdoff makes a compelling arguement for the TCE method (which does not represent my take).

In this thread, I just wanted to take on the controversial theme of "fast air". We do have a broad spectrum of views and no one has been able to make a real argument for "fast" except as a visualization with flaws.

Kalijah has in his last posts made a complex situation more easily visualized. Thank you!

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nordlandstrompet

This is absolutely on subject.

But; It has a major flaw. The fast air goes backwards! From bell to mpc!

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nordlands

"All music is folkmusic. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song?" Louis Armstrong

Wife still says: Trumpets are expencive!

Veldkamp

Rowuk, I suggest you read the explanations Kalijah already put on TH concerning fast air and tongue positions. I answered many questions I had concerning these subjects.

I gathered them in 1 pdf file:

http://www.erikveldkamp.nl/Resources...w-AirSpeed.pdf

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nordlandstrompet

A lot of interesting stuff in your gathered article.

To explain this matter for "the common man in the street", with few words, would my earler post:



"Temporary conclusion:

A brassinstrument only need to be supplied with different frequencies, according to the pitch of the core of the actual note which is played. This can be done by adding a loudspeaker or similar device to the mouthpiece. No airstream is needed.

The electrical trumpet acts like a loudspeaker with soundwaves out of the bell.

The trumpet as a windinstrument:

To play a trumpet the human way, the trumpet still needs the frequencies, but in this case, the lips has to make the waves. To make these waves, we need to get the lips to vibrate, (open/close), therefore we add air under different pressures behind the lips, as much as needed to get the lips in the right motion for the actual note. The lips have the possibility to change form and tension, to adjust the aperture to the correct shape for the single notes.
The air flows/escapes through the whole instrument at the same flowrate, but changes the speed where the bore sizes changes, narrower bore:higher speed - thicker bore:lower speed
The human player has to adjust all these parameters by use of the different bodymuscles which is needed. It also helps if we use the brain and ears.

Quality of sound will always depend on the skills of the human player.

The mouthpiece is an important part of the soundmaking, as this is the connection between human and metal, and probably it works like resonancechamber which transforms the waves before they travel into the leadpipe on their way to the bell.
The construction of the trumpet is another matter to the sound. Different brands have different designs regarding bore sizes, bell flares, placement of braces etc. etc.

The human trumpet acts like a loudspeaker with soundwaves and air flowing out of the bell.

It seems clear that the producer of the airflow/stream, (fast or not), is the most important part of the trumpet"

be an easy way of visualization, (Except from "the electrical trumpet")?

Just wondering ...

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nordlands

"All music is folkmusic. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song?" Louis Armstrong

Wife still says: Trumpets are expencive!

tedh1951

Lads,

I'll step in here, but just a little - be careful with the jet engine (gas turbine) analogy - the gas turbine certainly has air passing into the intake and almost the same volume of air passing out through the exhaust, and we do play around with Bernoulli a bit and change some pressures vs velocity vs temperature, but you need to remember that Mr Pratt and Mr Whitney, Messrs Rolls and Royce, and General Electric add an immense amount of additional energy into the gas stream of their airstreams with thousands of pounds of burning turbine fuel, and this energy is used to do work. But as a trumpet player there is nothing additional, no kerosene, - and there ain't no free lunch, even for the best of us. As always, 'you get out what you put in'.

Nice interesting thread though, I remain fascinated - keep it up.
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my skills nordlandstrompet.

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Ted

nordlandstrompet

I get your point, but, just to stretch the string:

If we make a mouthpiece just like the jet engine, with the fans, chambers etc, and the fuel will only be air, this is a venturi, slow air in - fast air out, but the same flow rate the whole way through?

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nordlands

"All music is folkmusic. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song?" Louis Armstrong

Wife still says: Trumpets are expencive!