trjeam

I think you're talking about mastering the trumpet and pat is talking something more....

yes I agree that anyone, if they put the work and their mind into it, they can master the trumpet but then there's the musical aspect of it where allot of us have limitations..

this could turn out into such a huge thread because this goes into things such as feelings, experiences, life ext... all things which affects ones artistic side...

here is what i mean..

you could go all over the world and i bet you that you could find thousands of outstanding trumpet techincians that are just as good technically as the top cats...

but think about this; what seperates all those great technicians from the greats such as Phill Smith, Maurice Andre, Bud ext...??

no matter how much you try you can't force yourself to play like them. the way they play is on a whole other level that goes way beyond just technique and studying and copying...

it's like saying that everyone is born with the ability to be a picasso... it doesn't work like that.. some people just don't have "it" and no matter how hard you work if you don't have "it" you can only go so far in life..

i'm not sure what that "it" is but all the greats have it and it goes even beyond mastering your subconsionce and all that stuff..

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gregtrum84

Just my two cents on the whole innate potential thing...

If you read "Song and Wind" by Brian Fredrickson, you will come to a part where he described Arnold Jacobs' hardest teaching experience. This involved a young man whom no one else could help because everybody thought he was tone deaf. It goes into the specifics of how Jacobs fixed this, but the point is that this person who was supposedly tone deaf was able to go on to a professional career in music as a result of Jacobs' help.

This seems to be a case in point supporting the argument that we all have an innate potential to achieve our dreams.

Now, sorry to be a little blunt here, but I think we can all look back on our failures and see that where we thought we just "didn't have it" was actually a case of us GIVING UP in some way, shape, or form. Did you stop exploring every possible option for improvement? Did you allow yourself to get frusterated and lose the joy of music? People want instant gratification, and the idea of constant work to acheive a goal over the course of years is something a lot of people put second to things like marriage, getting a job/supporting yourself, having money, etc.

I would say that the reason there are so few people at the top of any given profession is not that any one of us doesn't have the ability to become a great musician/doctor/lawyer/whatever, but because the majority of people lack the strength to never give up and to constantly work towards a specific goal. It takes a special kind of person to keep striving towards perfection in the face of things like falling in love, having a girlfriend, buying a house, and other distractions.

Imagine if the kid I mentioned in the first part of this post had never went to Arnold Jacobs for, but had allowed himself to be frusterated by the fact that no one could help him. By not exploring all his options, he would have subconciously given up on his goal of becoming a professional musician and I would venture to say that he would not have achieved success. What set this man apart was his need to try anything to achieve his dream.

Look back at any dreams you had growing up that you did not achieve. Be honest with yourself, what did you put ahead of that dream? The ones who achieve greatness are the ones who can look back and say that they put nothing ahead of their goal.

Greg[/b]

tpter1

This is getting interesting.

Yes, anyone can learn to push the right buttons; we can even learn to make the right notes come out, if we practice. But that is where it all ends and separate paths are walked.

We have all read/heard Manny, Ed, and other pros (and eveon our teachers and some of our conductors with whom we worked) talk about how important it is to be able to play different composers with differing sound qualities. From that, we even must produce differing styles and sounds depending upon the ensemble we are in. How does one do this? To be a technician, to play the right notes, in tune, at the right time, that's hard enough. To show artistic versatility; to be able to play the same phrase as though you were 4 different individuals, that takes an innate ability combined with the exposure to those sounds and experiences that allow that to happen. Much of that IS hard work; you can't just go buy a horn and do that with no effort. But all the hard work in the world will not allow that to happen if you do not have the propensity to hear the differences in sounds and styles, internalize them, and then bring them out, consistently when called for at a moment's notice.

Further, the ability to tell a story; to move musically through a phrase rather than blindly pressing fingers; to understand it's meaning and be able to make others understand that meaning; that requires more "musical intelligence". Let's remember that music is one of 7 multiple intelligences; some of us have more intellect in one area than others in the same area, yet others posess more in other areas. Let's examine 2 children, both from the same household, same upbringing, yet one has a 94 in math and is in the advanced math class; the other has a 62 in the lowest math class. The one with a 62, however, can tell stories and has a creative imagination beyond many in his class; his intellect lies in a different place. (Yes, these are 2 of my children). Music is no different; neither is athletic ability (spacial/kinesthetic awareness).

Every year, I see kids walk in my door knowing nothing about how to play an instrument at the beginning of the year. They all recieve the same instruction. On one occasion, I had a flute player that had figured out Mary Had a Little Lamb by the end of her first lesson. None of the fingerings were correct (she was using some odd alternates), but it sounded right. Next week, she was playing some theme from Shrek (the one the princess hums). By ear. Yet, by the end of December, some kids still could not manage to keep a beat for more than 2 beats. I've just inherited a drummerr who cannot read music (I know, that's not too out of the ordinary ), holds the sticks in a bizarre manner, yet can play almost any style, fairly cleanly (her grip gets in the way). But I have a kid who just really wants to be in band, and she just has no sense that she is so far off; but she works harder than any other kid I have in grades 5-12.

So, is it enough to love music and have the determiniation and steel will? Or, is there something else necessary in combination?

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"Roses have thorns; shining waters mud. Clouds and eclipses stain the moon and the sun; and history reeks of the wrongs we have done. After today, after today, consider me gone."- Sting

hose

tprer1,

I have been trying to say all along, probably poorly, that there is definitely "something else" necessary in the combo to attain top tier playing. It lies in the subconscious of our brains, untapped by most of us. We manage to keep it there for a variety of reasons even we are unaware of.

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