two sectioned main tuning slide - Page 3

rowuk · 10-12-2006, 12:16 PM

A trumpet in B major would be brilliant for the Hummel in E!

Dale Proctor · 10-12-2006, 12:16 PM

Maybe it's a high pitch Bb/A horn. Or maybe not......I'm confused too. If you have another Bb trumpet to compare notes/tuning to, I'd do that. The most common combo for the old Conns is the Bb/A setup. As this is a half step change and Bb to C isn't, that's my guess.

crowmadic · 10-12-2006, 05:41 PM

Thanks for correcting my typo. Let's try this simple example. If I blow a second space G with both slides in, and then remove the secondary slide and attempt to blow that same G it goes up 1/2 step. Can you explain "high pitch/low pitch" instrument to me?..........thanks

crowmadic · 10-12-2006, 05:47 PM

There is just a 1/2 step difference. Why would I want a Bb/A trumpet? I would prefer a Bb/C so I could read straight from piano music. Can you explain the appeal or application of the 'A' aspect, if in fact that's what it is......thanks

Tootsall · 10-12-2006, 07:24 PM

Well, there is obviously some problem with the terminology. 2nd space (from the bottom) is not a G but an A on trumpet (or "concert G" if you are playing a Bb keyed instrument).

"Back when", the actual frequency of "Concert A" used to change from time to time or country to country or continent to continent". Makers found it handy to be able to sell their instruments into different markets without any production changes so they'd build horns with a "high pitch/low pitch" valve or extra slide piece.

For similar reasons they would also build their horns so that they could be 'converted' from one key to another. Some did this with an additional valve (usually a rotary valve in the main tuning slide) and some with an extra extension piece to lower the pitch 1/2 step. It sure is starting to sound like you have an A/Bb instrument. Nothing wrong with that at all... makes it a bit of a rarity and you should have fun in Community band (pop that extra slide in and give a very quizzical look when they call for a tuning note and nobody else can match it!)

Just keep the configuration that makes a second line (open) note play a "Concert F" and leave it at that. You'll then be playing a "Bb" transposing instrument... same as all the other Bbs out there.

nieuwguyski · 10-12-2006, 07:32 PM

"High pitch" is an outmoded intonation standard based on (I believe) A = 457 hertz. It was common, particularly in Europe, before WWI. Up until the '20s most US instrument manufacturers made both high and low pitch versions of their instruments, or made two different sets of slides for brasses, to switch between high and low pitch. It really does sound like you have a high pitch Bb/A trumpet.

Why a Bb/A trumpet (or cornet)? A simple answer is that there are parts written for trumpet in A and cornet in A. In fact, you can find pieces (like "A Soldier's Tale" or some Gilbert & Sullivan operettas) in which the parts go back and forth between Bb and A.

[edit]Oops -- Toots won!

rowuk · 10-13-2006, 02:47 AM

Bb and A were common in Europe. Bb for the Brassband(or in Germany Posaunenchor) stuff and the A trumpet for performance with strings.
Today we use a C or D trumpet often to provide flat relief in an orchestral setting................

crowmadic · 10-18-2006, 05:18 PM

I've given up for now. All my attempts to finding out what kind of a trumpet my 1911 C.G. Conn is has led to only one conclusion: It plays with a beautiful tone as a Bb trumpet with both slides all the way in. But it is consistantly 1/2 step away from being a Bb/A trumpet. Using a tuner, when I play an A (1st and 2nd valve) the tuner, set at A=440, shows a G#. I'll just enjoy it in its Bb stage until a genius can deal with it in person. Thanks to all the geniuses on TM for your attempts to solve this dilemma.

crowmadic · 10-18-2006, 05:30 PM

You were accurate when you said "dodgy tuning". When I remove both slides, and replace only the main slide with the waterkey, and play a middle C into a tuning device set at A=440, it reads as a B. If I could hacksaw off a 1/2" of the lead pipe it might tune to a C, thereby making it the Bb/C trumpet I think it wants to be............................HELP!!!

crowmadic · 10-18-2006, 05:32 PM

What do you mean by "flat relief"?

10-12-2006, 12:16 PM	#21 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,367	A trumpet in B major would be brilliant for the Hummel in E! __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

10-12-2006, 12:16 PM	#22 (permalink)
Dale Proctor Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 699	Maybe it's a high pitch Bb/A horn. Or maybe not......I'm confused too. If you have another Bb trumpet to compare notes/tuning to, I'd do that. The most common combo for the old Conns is the Bb/A setup. As this is a half step change and Bb to C isn't, that's my guess. __________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away." - Sir Thomas Beecham Olde Towne Brass www.otbrass.com Brass Band of Huntsville www.brassbandofhuntsville.org

10-12-2006, 07:24 PM	#25 (permalink)
Tootsall Fortissimo User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Yee HAW! Posts: 4,641	Well, there is obviously some problem with the terminology. 2nd space (from the bottom) is not a G but an A on trumpet (or "concert G" if you are playing a Bb keyed instrument). "Back when", the actual frequency of "Concert A" used to change from time to time or country to country or continent to continent". Makers found it handy to be able to sell their instruments into different markets without any production changes so they'd build horns with a "high pitch/low pitch" valve or extra slide piece. For similar reasons they would also build their horns so that they could be 'converted' from one key to another. Some did this with an additional valve (usually a rotary valve in the main tuning slide) and some with an extra extension piece to lower the pitch 1/2 step. It sure is starting to sound like you have an A/Bb instrument. Nothing wrong with that at all... makes it a bit of a rarity and you should have fun in Community band (pop that extra slide in and give a very quizzical look when they call for a tuning note and nobody else can match it!) Just keep the configuration that makes a second line (open) note play a "Concert F" and leave it at that. You'll then be playing a "Bb" transposing instrument... same as all the other Bbs out there. Last edited by Tootsall; 10-12-2006 at 07:29 PM.

10-12-2006, 07:32 PM	#26 (permalink)
nieuwguyski Pianissimo User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 194	"High pitch" is an outmoded intonation standard based on (I believe) A = 457 hertz. It was common, particularly in Europe, before WWI. Up until the '20s most US instrument manufacturers made both high and low pitch versions of their instruments, or made two different sets of slides for brasses, to switch between high and low pitch. It really does sound like you have a high pitch Bb/A trumpet. Why a Bb/A trumpet (or cornet)? A simple answer is that there are parts written for trumpet in A and cornet in A. In fact, you can find pieces (like "A Soldier's Tale" or some Gilbert & Sullivan operettas) in which the parts go back and forth between Bb and A. [edit]Oops -- Toots won! __________________ John N. Nieuwguyski

10-13-2006, 02:47 AM	#27 (permalink)
rowuk Moderator Fortissimo User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 4,367	Bb and A were common in Europe. Bb for the Brassband(or in Germany Posaunenchor) stuff and the A trumpet for performance with strings. Today we use a C or D trumpet often to provide flat relief in an orchestral setting................ __________________ Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

10-12-2006, 05:41 PM	#23 (permalink)
crowmadic Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 539	Thanks for correcting my typo. Let's try this simple example. If I blow a second space G with both slides in, and then remove the secondary slide and attempt to blow that same G it goes up 1/2 step. Can you explain "high pitch/low pitch" instrument to me?..........thanks

10-12-2006, 05:47 PM	#24 (permalink)
crowmadic Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 539	There is just a 1/2 step difference. Why would I want a Bb/A trumpet? I would prefer a Bb/C so I could read straight from piano music. Can you explain the appeal or application of the 'A' aspect, if in fact that's what it is......thanks

10-18-2006, 05:18 PM	#28 (permalink)
crowmadic Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 539	I've given up for now. All my attempts to finding out what kind of a trumpet my 1911 C.G. Conn is has led to only one conclusion: It plays with a beautiful tone as a Bb trumpet with both slides all the way in. But it is consistantly 1/2 step away from being a Bb/A trumpet. Using a tuner, when I play an A (1st and 2nd valve) the tuner, set at A=440, shows a G#. I'll just enjoy it in its Bb stage until a genius can deal with it in person. Thanks to all the geniuses on TM for your attempts to solve this dilemma.

10-18-2006, 05:30 PM	#29 (permalink)
crowmadic Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 539	You were accurate when you said "dodgy tuning". When I remove both slides, and replace only the main slide with the waterkey, and play a middle C into a tuning device set at A=440, it reads as a B. If I could hacksaw off a 1/2" of the lead pipe it might tune to a C, thereby making it the Bb/C trumpet I think it wants to be............................HELP!!!

10-18-2006, 05:32 PM	#30 (permalink)
crowmadic Mezzo Piano User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 539	What do you mean by "flat relief"?

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