What laqueur to use? - Page 2

mike ansberry · 05-23-2005, 09:04 PM

I don't know about clear floor epoxy. Maybe it would work. I use Nikolas spray cans that I obtain from Allied Supply or Ferrees. It is an air dry lacquer, and I really have had no trouble with it. You do need to be careful about temperature and humidity, or it will mess up the finish.

Technique is very important. You have to start the spray away from the part to be lacquered, and move the spray continuously across the work piece and past the end. You have to get a coat that is wet enough to look glossy, but doesn't run. It takes a real feel and a lot of practice. Like someone else said, with airdry you can strip it and try again.

Man, i don't know if I'd try a floor epoxy. But then I don't have any experience with floor epoxy, either.

Cornet1 · 05-26-2005, 01:33 PM

Mike,....a bit belated, but thanks for your interesting and useful reply...

I have not been able to track down the 'Nikolas' product as yet but am on course to try the epoxy,.....have cleaned part of the 'sacrificial' trumpet for the experiment. Regards, Bob

Robert Rowe · 05-26-2005, 08:45 PM

I have experience in this area ... but, it is a bit more complicated, and I'd rather not go too deep into the entire procedure.

One thing to bear in mind: "cleanliness is next to God-liness".

The brass should be buffed, followed by thorough de-greasing (utilizing a commercial de-greaser expressly for this application), and then a "hand-ragging". Important: wear clean cotton gloves. Do not let even one minute finger-print on the ready-to-lacquer metal !

It can be done, but the people (certified repair techs) that do this for a living have a fairly significant amount of training, experience and equipment, and the fee for this service is modest. If you have a lot of time on your hands, and a good work area that allows it -- Go for it!
Figure about $1 (US) per hour for your time. How much does your "real job" pay you? Do the math.

Regards,
Robert Rowe

Cornet1 · 05-27-2005, 08:01 AM

Robert,...thank you for you reply....

Yes, I am well aware of the need for extreme cleanliness,...and have carbody pre-spray and disposable surgical gloves ready!

As to the second part of your post; I am not intending to do this in any pro way,......purely for my own instruments, notably the Besson which is scarcely worth the cost of having it refinished by a pro concern. There is also the additional factor of actually finding someone to do a good job....the vast majority of re-lac and re-silver jobs which i see and have seen over the last 30 years have been bungled,...even those done thru' top brass outlets. Here in the Uk I know of no place which will do a guaranteed job which I would trust except for 'First Class Brass'(Eclipse) and th price (although I have not enquired) would be several times the value of the instrument.

Regards, Bob

trickg · 05-27-2005, 08:55 AM

This might sound like an odd idea, but an idea that might help you to learn to lacquer or epoxy a finish would be to go to the hardware store, pick up a bunch of small scale copper plumbing, and cut and solder it together in some challenging configurations that would somewhat mimick certain physical aspects of a trumpet. Then you could polish and buff it up, degrease it, and laquer that rather than an actual trumpet so that you can test your methods before taking it to an actual trumpet. I know that it would be a lot of extra time and work, but it might reveal some aspects of the process that you weren't aware of, and it will keep you from having to try to strip the other one if you do make a mistake.

Just a thought.

Robert Rowe · 05-27-2005, 09:02 AM

Hello, Bob (Cornet1 ) --

(And by-the-way, Welcome to TrumpetMaster ... we look forward to your posts).

I understand where you're coming from (point of view) on the economics of the re-lacquering. I admire your determination. You seem to be well-acquainted with the aspects of the project, so I would like to see you proceed; in which case, please apprise us here of your progress and results, along with helpful comments.

Good luck!

Best Regards,
Robert Rowe

Cornet1 · 05-27-2005, 10:50 AM

Patrick and Robert,....thank you for your encouragement....

Would you know the best way of adding colour photos to posts please?

Regards to all, Bob

trickg · 05-27-2005, 10:58 AM

Bob, it appears that the only way to post a picture on this site is to have it hosted elsewhere and then link to it using the "Img" button.

This is an interesting project that you have taken on and I really hope that you succeed with your efforts. I have wondered about lacquering metals myself, but mainly as a means of restoring and preserving brass fixtures around the house.

mike ansberry · 05-28-2005, 09:48 AM

Just finished up fixing a crushed bell on a bass trumpet yesterday. Rented some time on the Ferree's dent machine at the shop where I used to work. (25 years ago, Shivelbine's Music) Man, what a cool machine. Anyway, I lacquered it in my garage/shop yesterday with my trusty Nikolas lacquer. It looks almost like new. You can see the stretch marks in the brass where it was crushed, but the lacquer turned out perfect. I'm surprised that after 25 years of lacquering horns in my garage without ANY sophisticated equipment, (I don't do whole horns, but sometimes have to do large sections and whole bells) I haven't had a single horn returned because the lacquer didn't hold up.

trickg · 05-28-2005, 12:03 PM

Nikolas lacquer? Tell me more. I have never heard of Nikolas lacquer. Where do you get it?

05-23-2005, 09:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
mike ansberry Piano User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Clarksville, Tennessee, USA Posts: 330	I don't know about clear floor epoxy. Maybe it would work. I use Nikolas spray cans that I obtain from Allied Supply or Ferrees. It is an air dry lacquer, and I really have had no trouble with it. You do need to be careful about temperature and humidity, or it will mess up the finish. Technique is very important. You have to start the spray away from the part to be lacquered, and move the spray continuously across the work piece and past the end. You have to get a coat that is wet enough to look glossy, but doesn't run. It takes a real feel and a lot of practice. Like someone else said, with airdry you can strip it and try again. Man, i don't know if I'd try a floor epoxy. But then I don't have any experience with floor epoxy, either. __________________ "Music is a fire in your belly that has to come out of your mouth, so you'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt" (paraphrase of Bleeding Gums Murphy)

05-27-2005, 08:55 AM	#15 (permalink)
trickg Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland Posts: 2,054	This might sound like an odd idea, but an idea that might help you to learn to lacquer or epoxy a finish would be to go to the hardware store, pick up a bunch of small scale copper plumbing, and cut and solder it together in some challenging configurations that would somewhat mimick certain physical aspects of a trumpet. Then you could polish and buff it up, degrease it, and laquer that rather than an actual trumpet so that you can test your methods before taking it to an actual trumpet. I know that it would be a lot of extra time and work, but it might reveal some aspects of the process that you weren't aware of, and it will keep you from having to try to strip the other one if you do make a mistake. Just a thought. __________________ Patrick Gleason email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com "What we do in life echoes in eternity" "At my signal, unleash hell." - Maximus Decimus Meridius

05-27-2005, 10:58 AM	#18 (permalink)
trickg Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland Posts: 2,054	Bob, it appears that the only way to post a picture on this site is to have it hosted elsewhere and then link to it using the "Img" button. This is an interesting project that you have taken on and I really hope that you succeed with your efforts. I have wondered about lacquering metals myself, but mainly as a means of restoring and preserving brass fixtures around the house. __________________ Patrick Gleason email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com "What we do in life echoes in eternity" "At my signal, unleash hell." - Maximus Decimus Meridius

05-28-2005, 09:48 AM	#19 (permalink)
mike ansberry Piano User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Clarksville, Tennessee, USA Posts: 330	Just finished up fixing a crushed bell on a bass trumpet yesterday. Rented some time on the Ferree's dent machine at the shop where I used to work. (25 years ago, Shivelbine's Music) Man, what a cool machine. Anyway, I lacquered it in my garage/shop yesterday with my trusty Nikolas lacquer. It looks almost like new. You can see the stretch marks in the brass where it was crushed, but the lacquer turned out perfect. I'm surprised that after 25 years of lacquering horns in my garage without ANY sophisticated equipment, (I don't do whole horns, but sometimes have to do large sections and whole bells) I haven't had a single horn returned because the lacquer didn't hold up. __________________ "Music is a fire in your belly that has to come out of your mouth, so you'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt" (paraphrase of Bleeding Gums Murphy)

05-28-2005, 12:03 PM	#20 (permalink)
trickg Forte User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland Posts: 2,054	Nikolas lacquer? Tell me more. I have never heard of Nikolas lacquer. Where do you get it? __________________ Patrick Gleason email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com "What we do in life echoes in eternity" "At my signal, unleash hell." - Maximus Decimus Meridius

05-26-2005, 01:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
Cornet1 Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Essex, England Posts: 156	Mike,....a bit belated, but thanks for your interesting and useful reply... I have not been able to track down the 'Nikolas' product as yet but am on course to try the epoxy,.....have cleaned part of the 'sacrificial' trumpet for the experiment. Regards, Bob

05-26-2005, 08:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
Robert Rowe Piano User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 498	I have experience in this area ... but, it is a bit more complicated, and I'd rather not go too deep into the entire procedure. One thing to bear in mind: "cleanliness is next to God-liness". The brass should be buffed, followed by thorough de-greasing (utilizing a commercial de-greaser expressly for this application), and then a "hand-ragging". Important: wear clean cotton gloves. Do not let even one minute finger-print on the ready-to-lacquer metal ! It can be done, but the people (certified repair techs) that do this for a living have a fairly significant amount of training, experience and equipment, and the fee for this service is modest. If you have a lot of time on your hands, and a good work area that allows it -- Go for it! Figure about $1 (US) per hour for your time. How much does your "real job" pay you? Do the math. Regards, Robert Rowe

05-27-2005, 08:01 AM	#14 (permalink)
Cornet1 Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Essex, England Posts: 156	Robert,...thank you for you reply.... Yes, I am well aware of the need for extreme cleanliness,...and have carbody pre-spray and disposable surgical gloves ready! As to the second part of your post; I am not intending to do this in any pro way,......purely for my own instruments, notably the Besson which is scarcely worth the cost of having it refinished by a pro concern. There is also the additional factor of actually finding someone to do a good job....the vast majority of re-lac and re-silver jobs which i see and have seen over the last 30 years have been bungled,...even those done thru' top brass outlets. Here in the Uk I know of no place which will do a guaranteed job which I would trust except for 'First Class Brass'(Eclipse) and th price (although I have not enquired) would be several times the value of the instrument. Regards, Bob

05-27-2005, 09:02 AM	#16 (permalink)
Robert Rowe Piano User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 498	Hello, Bob (Cornet1 ) -- (And by-the-way, Welcome to TrumpetMaster ... we look forward to your posts). I understand where you're coming from (point of view) on the economics of the re-lacquering. I admire your determination. You seem to be well-acquainted with the aspects of the project, so I would like to see you proceed; in which case, please apprise us here of your progress and results, along with helpful comments. Good luck! Best Regards, Robert Rowe

05-27-2005, 10:50 AM	#17 (permalink)
Cornet1 Pianissimo User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Essex, England Posts: 156	Patrick and Robert,....thank you for your encouragement.... Would you know the best way of adding colour photos to posts please? Regards to all, Bob

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