rowuk

JHORN,
I am talking about the fake objectivity in a subjective world. I am talking about an orchestra commitee probably more concerned with sorting out the first round than finding THE TRUMPET PLAYER immediately. Tough, unfair? Sure. I'll bet that Hags warms up in the hotel next time and sees a room at the orchestra as frosting on the cake!
Wilmer had a great post about training not to need a warmup for this exact reason - if you are dependant on it, and circumstances do not permit it, you are screwed! The players that can PERFORM after only a couple of notes have a BIG advantage here!
Sure, other orchestras have better developed procedures. Do they produce better results? I have my doubts. Players stay because the job is satisfying and the money is ok regardless of the auditioning process. Orchestras give tenure when the playing and the personality fit. The first round can give you a good idea of the playing and a glimpse of the personality especially if there are substandard situations present. In any case with the amount of players being churned out, and the minimum amount of positions available, the orchestras are at a distinct advantage and can get away with MUCH more than if they were fighting over a handful of players! Maybe Darwin knew something about the audition process?

Pipedope had an interesting comment "Then again, the way they do auditions is likely the way everything they do will go. They will end up with people who fit in that mold (sic) and it will show."
I couldn't agree more!

Hags,
I did not get the impression that you were "wining" at all. You documented a bad situation at Boise that was not organized or professional in any way. My point is that regardless of the process, the end result is probably no different.
I am pretty sure that Boise did not choose to spend time organizing anything. Whether that was ignorance, maliciousness or just unfortunate, I am not in a position to say. Your warning was appropriate and only time will tell if their process really worked.
Boise is for sure aware that if they hire some monster, that they will be looking AGAIN very soon - at only 14 - 15K a year, "great players" have nothing to lose auditioning elsewhere.

Tatakata,
I freelance with several orchestras in Hessen, Germany and have the solo chair with one in Giessen. My day job is selling IBM mainframes and other large computers to medium and large sized businesses.
In many of the ensembles we have a steady core - and hire additional players as necessary, sometimes with an audition. It is amazing how credentials and playing do not line up, it is amazing how much "(lack of) preparation" is displayed, it is amazing what is expected of US.
My experience is that if the player has excellent rhythm, tone and range, has reasonably prepared and has an aura of humility, they will work out in any ensemble - even if they crack a couple of notes during the audition. If "attitude" is the first thing that I sense, that player better have their act 120% together (they NEVER do).
Hags ran into a lack of respect for the audition process at Boise (from the orchestra). I think that an auditionee needs to function optimally even under those circumstances. Like I said, Hags will probably warm up in the hotel next time and be in a better position to ignore an unfavorable situation.
Those traits are also useful later in the orchestra......... (imagine getting stuck in traffic and showing up 1 minute before the curtain, or some idiot knocking your horn off of the table and you having to play your Bb instead of the C. Nerves of steel are VERY useful!).

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Vulgano Brother

To the best of my knowledge, Boise does not have a labor agreement negotiated by the American Federation of Musicians (none can be forced, because Idaho is a "Right to Work" state), and if any complaint could be made, it would be with the International Musician for running the ad (if they did).

I auditioned there back in the early 1980's, and it sounds as if the conditions (pay and auditions) haven't gotten any better. The drive there and back was pretty spectacular though.

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Dale Proctor

Hags888, you have my sympathy. I've been on the raw end of a symphony audition deal before, and it was my last audition. Ever. You all can have the highbrow/political symphony scene if you wish, but I'm done with it. I'll stick to playing in groups with a greater brass presence.

There's my rant (and I auditioned for and played in a semi-professional symphony orchestra for 5 seasons back in the 1980's). I say, let the strings have the mess.

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Jimi Michiel

Vulgano,

A guy that I occasionally play with here in Minneapolis had the same sentiments, that the pay hasn't gone up since he auditioned in the 80s, although it was a pretty decent amount of money back then.

Scott,

I think I can top your story. I auditioned for a 3rd trumpet job with the La Crosse (WI) Symphony last week. It's a per-service orchestra in a small town in southern Wisconsin, but the pay is ok and there are some respected players in the group (including the principal trumpet, who is a respected Minneapolis freelancer). Here's my list of gripes:

1) When I sent them my resume, they didn't respond for several weeks. After several (but not too many) follow-up emails/calls, they finally confirmed that I was invited to the audition. I didn't get a repertoire list for another week ("you mean you never got that email?")

2) They had clarinet, tuba and horn auditions before the trumpet auditions. I carpooled with a clarinetist, so I was the first trumpet applicant there. Instead of drawing a number, they just gave me the first spot because I was the first one there (I think everyone else drew numbers). The auditions went slowly and quickly fell behind. After the clarinet auditions, which ended around 7PM, I was given a warm up room and told to get ready as they MAY be moving the trumpet auditions ahead of the horn auditions. I warmed up and got ready to play, even though I was originally scheduled to play at 8:15. At about 7:30, I was told that I wouldn't be playing until after the horns. (At this point, the other trumpet applicants were just arriving and hadn't warmed up yet). I sat in the waiting room and tried to cool down.

3) When I went back to my warmup room, there was a horn player practicing in there. Instead of asking me if I was finished, they just gave away my room. I had already warmed up and wasn't planning on playing any more.

4) The horn auditions finally ended around 9:15, an hour after the trumpet auditions were supposed to start. The Personnel Manager who was running the auditions laughed and mentioned, "It's so funny, the same thing (running an hour behind) happened last year! Ha ha!" At this point, the committee took a break. While they were taking a break, a clarinet and tuba applicant who had gotten lost on the way finally showed up. Instead of apologizing and saying that they were already behind schedule, they let them play sub-list auditions for the committee! For some reason, I was under the audition that "MapQuest gave me the wrong directions" is not a valid excuse for missing your audition. Apparently not in La Crosse.

Around 9:45 I was told that the trumpet auditions would be starting shortly and I should start warming up. I was a little tired (a 2.5 hour drive to get there didn't help). I was also told MULTIPLE times that I would be playing my solo first, then excerpts (apparently the personnel manager had gotten into trouble earlier for not reminding an applicant that the solo was first). Around 10:15 the committee was finally ready to hear the first trumpet applicant (me). I had been getting in the zone, focusing on playing my solo, the third movement of the Brandenburg (I know, it was a risk, but I'd been working it up for a performance in October and have been really consistent). So I'm standing outside the audition room with the other applicants an earshot away in a waiting room.

Literally 30 seconds before I went in, I was told that the committee was in a hurry, would NOT be hearing my solo and that the list of excerpts to be heard would be: Pictures, Leonore, Pines of Rome, Carmen and Tchaik 4. I was also told to hurry because it was getting late. "You need to have your music in order!" All 30 seconds before I went in. I didn't even know what to do with my piccolo trumpet (in hindsight I could have brought it with me, but I wasn't thinking clearly). I ended up putting it in the waiting room with the other applicants. The other applicants, by the way, were able to hear the excerpt order before they went in and got at least 15 minutes (14.5 more than me) to get their music in order and think through the list.

I went in and played the best I could. I had been focusing on playing the Brandenburg and then whatever excerpts they wanted. I didn't mentally recover from not doing the Brandenburg, as well as being rushed into the room. I played the best I could have under the circumstances, although not particularly well.

I heard the other applicants play (the audition room wasn't soundproof and was right next to the waiting room) and no one really stood out. It was like a war of attrition. Everyone was tired, it was late and I think everyone else was frustrated with the way the audition was being run.

After all the applicants finished, the committee deliberated for about 20 minutes. The personnel manager manager came out and prefaced by saying "Thanks for staying late. The committee had some tough decisions to make. You all played..." Trumpet? "well." She then announced two numbers of people who would advance, one of which was incorrect ("3... I mean 4, I'm sorry!!!"). My number wasn't called.

This is where I'm going to wine because I didn't win: I prepared well for this audition. I practiced the excerpts in several different orders, with and without the solo. I didn't practice warming up twice, the second time around 10 at night. I also didn't practice having someone tell me that I would be playing the Brandenburg Concerto for a half hour, then, 30 seconds before I'm supposed to play ripping the picc out of my hand and telling me to play excerpts. I also don't appreciate the other applicants having time to mentally prepare the excerpt order while I was rushed in.

No one played well that night, and I'm not angry that I wasn't selected for the second round. I'm angry that the conditions were so un-conducive to performing well and that I was penalized for showing up early (and to a lesser extent choosing a difficult solo that required so much mental preparation to play). La Crosse missed out on a well qualified applicant (probably more as I'm sure some of the other dismissed applicants would have played better under normal conditions).

OK, rant over.

-Jimi

PS. Scott, sounds like we both need a beer or two. Give me a call sometime.

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Hags888

Hey Jimi,

Wow, that sounds pretty bad too. I feel for ya. You know the more I think about the audition process and these terrible experiences, the more I wonder, "How has the music world deteriorated to this?" We're the only "profession" where applicants have to audition for a job, and here are two prime examples of just how unprofessional things can really get. Why do we have to put up with this?

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ilikethetrumpet

I'm not flaming here, I'm just curious--why in heck would you play the brandenburg at an audition in... lacrosse? Isn't that sort of like swatting a fly with a bazooka?

Reading the initial post made me think that maybe the reason I (at least me, I'm not saying this is universal) typically play worse at an audition, not better, is that I tend to caught up in superficiality: 10:15, stamp; 10:30, play the first few bars of pictures; don't overdo it; don't overdo it. If you were PLAYING in the boise symphony, would you be comfortable warming up in a communal room like you would be? If the concert started late, or you had to be on stage 15 minutes early, would you miss more notes? Probably not--you would think, "I'm a trained professional. This isn't ideal, but I'll focus extra hard and sound great." I play how I play, and getting caught up in all the auditioning posturing only leads me to choose to think about something other than the sound of the room.

Time is a different story entirely. You know what? I really wish some of these smaller orchestras (I live in Iowa, there are tons of them of reasonably similar quality with a couple exceptions) could have some sort of pool auditions. It would never work, but it might really draw a higher caliber of players.

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ilikethetrumpet

To clarify, I meant by "pool auditions" nothing to do with swimming or billiards. But come now, can't five committees fit in one big room and here Haydn, pictures, pines, petrouchka, etc...? Maybe it could be proctored by an AFM official. Just a dream.

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trpt2345

So many times it appears that the least consequential and worst situations have the most unrealistic audition situations. When I was in grad school there were a few openings in lower grade orchestras and I remember Tom Stevens remarking that a couple of them were just completely unrealistic. Hang in there and keep at it.

Michael McLaughlin

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Jimi Michiel

Scott,

Just remember that even if auditions are painful, at least we have the chance to apply for whatever jobs we want. Before auditions, it was all word of mouth. If you didn't know somebody, you didn't get gigs. I also think that the majority of auditions out there are run pretty well. That has been my experience, and it seems to be yours. The auditions that aren't run well are for wanna-be orchestras and orchestras on their way down (and sometimes out). Robin said it best, "at the end of the day, they'll get what they deserve!"

ilikethetrumpet-

An AFM proctor at every audition would be a dream. If only... (Billiards also sounds like a great idea!)

As for why I chose Brandenburg... Honestly, why not? I've performed it in concert and in auditions before and it has always gone well. I spent several weeks on it with my undergrad teacher learning not only the technique, but how to phrase and play musically in relation to the other soloists. I think it shows off my strengths better than anything else in the repertoire, so I play it as often as I can. What happened in La Crosse was freakish and I don't expect it to happen again. I wonder if I'm the only trumpet in history to screw up an audition solely because I WASN'T asked to play the Brandenburg.

-Jimi

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Jimi Michiel

PS. Charlie Schlueter wrote an incredibly insightful article about auditions that addresses some of the issues in this thread. Check it out: CHARLES SCHLUETER ON AUDITIONS

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