fnchdrms87

getting rid of the list would take a considerable amount of control out of the candidates hands of the outcome. Probably a lot of guys go through head trips when they play the list down the best that they can and don't get the job. Plus, especially a lot of younger players who don't have a 52 week symphony job need these lists so they can learn what they need to know. In this system, what if one player is more refined then another and the other guy gets the job only because he knew one more piece of music. This situation sounds absolutely ridiclous in my head, but it's a situation I could see happening should list's be abolished. With this system, I could see a whole bunch of candidates just half-@$$ learn the "entire" symphonic repertoire instead working on the the same problems the standard 5-10 excerpts present. The committee may probably get sick of hearing the same thing played poorly, and they are glad to hear someone play it WELL.

"Playing the trumpet is not a simple matter of acquiring knowledge and then knowing which piece of knowledge to use at a particular time. It is a skill, and you are training yourself to be able to do it without constant chatter from your conscious mind."
--Craig Morris


--------------

trumpetmike

I completely agree that if you are not accustomed to playing in a large symphony orchestra then much of the repertoire you will be expected to know for these audition lists might be unfamiliar to you, especially in context. However, if you are unfamiliar with it, surely the people on the audition panel want to know that you are unfamiliar with the music, not that you have learnt a few excerpts. If you are presented with a piece that you are completely unfamiliar with, yet can play it well, in a style that is appropriate, surely that is a better demonstration of whether you are suitable for a top job, rather than proving that you can play a few excerpts.

Sight-reading is, to me, one of the essential elements of playing an instrument. Being able to do so in an appropriate style is very difficult, but is becoming more expected - especially if you are heading into the studio world (or playing with orchestras that don't seem to believe in "over" rehearsing - something that is quite common in the UK).

I will be very honest, most of my life is spent teaching (most of which is spent teaching beginner students). I don't do much in the way of symphonic playing at the moment. I do quite a bit of chamber orchestra playing and choral work (specialising on piccolo), but I am no major symphony style player. There are MUCH better people out there for doing that sort of playing and I wouldn't claim to be anything like in their league.

I have to admit that I was aiming my original post at the principal positions in the bigger orchestras, rather than section positions. However, saying that, I would imagine that most conservatoire trained students already have a large knowledge of the excerpts. From what I have seen (especially at ITG conferences) there are a huge number of students who have all the standard excerpts memorised (there should be a large fine for anyone playing Mahler 5 at ITG) yet if you were to ask them to sight read an unfamiliar piece they would potentially only play the notes, there would not be the same degree of musicality that they have "programmed in" on their pre-learnt excerpts.
If I was looking for the best musician to fill a top job, I would want someone who can play anything in a musical way, not just the excerpts they have been playing since they were 16.

As for Hansel & Gretel - I was very pleased that my university teacher made me get that one under my fingers. I was fresh out of university and had been booked to play second in a local group. The programme read like an audition excerpt list (many of the usual excerpts) and I thought that it would be a great way to get to know how to play the music (the guy booked on first was a fantastic player). Well, got to the rehearsal and there was no first trumpet. He had phoned in ill, was unable to find a dep so the conductor asked me to do the first parts all day. It was a good lesson in "make sure you learn everything, including how to sight read."



I can see why many groups publish a list, but surely if you are one of the top groups and hoping to attract the best player for the job, you don't need to tell them what they will need to know - they should know. If the players don't know what the repertoire is, why are they going for the job?

trumpetnick

Mike,
I agree with you and I think we are on the same brain wave. But still different orchestra may have very different repertoire.

In Switzerland when I got my degree from every year there is place for trumpet apprentice in few very good orchestras...One of them is Orchestre Symphonique de Bienne (or Biel depending on wether you say it in french of german...Oh, these swiss people ...they make me laugh sometimes) For some reason this orchestra was requiring few light music excerpts few excerpts I did not find anywhere else and some opera repertoire. Another orchestra in France (Orchestre de Picardie) required quite a lot of film music and then...L'Histoire du Soldat or Soldier's Tale which is not probably that difficult to read but getting the right notes may be. And then getting the right notes and put the right style in the same time while reading...is not that simple. Soldier's Tale is great music but I would not like to get something similar without a prior notice for an audition, though I got already some experience. Well, if I go to a LSO or Munich Philharmoniker probably I should be prepared for such surprise.
Once I send my CV for a Principal Position for the France Radio Philharmonique. End of the story: I cancelled my participation 1 weel before the audition as there was couple excerpts which were above my playing standard. Though I knew what the music was some of the excerpts where so difficult (I think especially of a B flat pic part in some contemporary german composer Symphony, whose name I cannot recall, where the pic was to play all over the place...from the lowest note you can get on a pic to G below the staff and the interval were so difficult). I could not play this correctly even after few weeks practice, and I can imagine how difficult can be to sight-read such a thing. And this was for the 3rd stage. I don't know who ended by being engaged but he should be a hell of a trumpeter! The 2 years later the same orchestra was auditioning trumpeters for the same position...

This makes me think of an orchestra in Switzerland...I think it was the Zurich Halle Orchestra who was auditioning 2 years in a row for the Principal Position cause the had a very good principal but wanted to get rid of him for no one was able to get along with him. But the usual scheme there is that the audition panle has to include the Principal player+ another brass player+string player+chief conductor. So, the man was supposed to find the man who would take his job. Weird. Hope I am not hijacking this thread.

__________________
Spada Bach B flat 72, leadpipe 2L/DWMM1.5C
Spada Bach C 256, leadpipe 2LQ/DWMM1.5C
1956 Olds Ambassador Cornet
Spada Custom Piccolo

If you don't know where you are going, you 'll end up someplace else

trumpetnick

Mike,
I agree with you and I think we are on the same brain wave. But still different orchestra may have very different repertoire.

In Switzerland when I got my degree from every year there is place for trumpet apprentice in few very good orchestras...One of them is Orchestre Symphonique de Bienne (or Biel depending on wether you say it in french of german...Oh, these swiss people ...they make me laugh sometimes) For some reason this orchestra was requiring few light music excerpts, few excerpts I did not find anywhere else and some opera repertoire. Another orchestra in France (Orchestre de Picardie) for a similar apprentice position required quite a lot of film music and then...L'Histoire du Soldat or if you prefer Soldier's Tale which is not probably that difficult to read but getting the right notes may be. And then getting the right notes and put the right style in the same time while reading...is not that simple. Soldier's Tale is great music but I would not like to get something similar without a prior notice for an audition, though I got already some experience. Well, if I go to a LSO or Munich Philharmoniker probably I should be prepared for such surprise.

Once I send my CV for a Principal Position for the France Radio Philharmonique. End of the story: I cancelled my participation 1 weel before the audition as there was couple excerpts which were above my playing standard. Though I knew what the music was some of the excerpts where so difficult (I think especially of a B flat pic part in some contemporary german composer Symphony, whose name I cannot recall, where the pic was to play all over the place...from the lowest note you can get on a pic to G below the staff and the interval were so difficult). I could not play this correctly even after few weeks practice, and I can imagine how difficult can be to sight-read such a thing. And this was for the 3rd stage. I don't know who ended by being engaged but he should be a hell of a trumpeter! The 2 years later the same orchestra was auditioning trumpeters for the same position...

This makes me think of an orchestra in Switzerland...I think it was the Zurich Halle Orchestra who was auditioning 2 years in a row for the Principal Position cause the had a very good principal but wanted to get rid of him for no one was able to get along with him. But the usual scheme there is that the audition panle has to include the Principal player+ another brass player+string player+chief conductor. So, the man was supposed to find the man who would take his job. Weird. Hope I am not hijacking this thread.

__________________
Spada Bach B flat 72, leadpipe 2L/DWMM1.5C
Spada Bach C 256, leadpipe 2LQ/DWMM1.5C
1956 Olds Ambassador Cornet
Spada Custom Piccolo

If you don't know where you are going, you 'll end up someplace else

trumpetmike

Would love to know more about that piccolo part - sounds fun

wiseone2

I won't name names, but back in the sixties I auditioned for a fairly large mid-western orchestra. I was still in the Baltimore orchestra, playing the repertoire every day and at the top of my auditioning game.
I played the audition without one note of music in front of me......and with no prior knowledge of what was going to be asked at the audition. I nailed everything I did not get the job........ it was the sixties
Wilmer

__________________
Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear.
S.Suark 1951

trumpetmike

This leads me on to another thought - should advanced students be learning all the standard excerpts so that they can play them from memory, or should we be training our top students to be able to tackle anything put in front of them, regardless of whether it is familiar or not?

ecarroll

Wilmer,

It still happens occasionally.

One of our friends who plays principal trumpet in a major orchestra played a private audition for Danny Barenboim at Carnegie Recital Hall prior to the final audition in Chicago that Chris won. There wasn't a music stand on the stage . . . DB simply called out the passages he wanted to hear and our friend tossed them back effortlessly.

Note also that our friend decided afterward that he didn't want to be considered for the job. Perhaps he couldn't stand the thought of becoming a Cubs fan?

Cheers,
EC

TrentAustin

nah ed, I would have been a cubs fan if I won the job. I don't even like the Mets (unless they beat the Yankees)!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you should hear me try to play some excerpts now that is even funnier :)

Happy holidays everyone.
-T

(I'm kidding... I do like the Mets).
;)

__________________
Trent Austin
Taking a break to focus on my music but I am lurking around. If you want to chat PM me.
http://www.trentaustin.com
http://www.onlinejazzimprovisation.com

trumpetmike

Trent - your re-interpretations of some of the familiar excerpts had me helpless at ITG - they should the standard to which everyone aspires.