trumpetnick

If there is probably someone to know the piece I was talking about should be Manny or Wilmer...I remember that there was irregular time signatures (as far as I remember 7/8) quite big intervals after which there was 4 high (above the staff) g's in crochets and so on. It was not fun when you cannot get the right notes...not speaking of style, phrasing etc.

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rowuk

I think the lists are justified - especially when you are advertising to the international community.
Let's face it, the orchestras generally have ample time to prepare, so "sight reading" is not the #1 requirement. The level of preparation is a sign of competence.
If the audition staff is only listening for technical perfection, then the orchestra made a mistake having them run the audition. 10 bars playing into the Haydn trumpet concerto and I generally know how the rest is going to be. After 15 minutes of auditioning, I think competent players have heard what is necessary. After that personality and team qualities become most important. I have never seen an audition where one has to play something in the section.

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Manny Laureano

I think we've gotten a bit off track with the focus on sight reading. My contention is that after proper training with a good teacher, going to concerts as a student, playing experiences while in college a talented player should be able to audition for a conductor or committee and have a fair knowledge of the repertoire.

Interestingly, studying Hansel and Gretel was a fairly big deal when I was in school as was the study of all the Wagner operas. We had to be fluent in A, E, F, Eb, D, Db, and G transpositions by our senior year if you studied all four years with Vacchiano. This made us great sight readers. We studied scales, arpeggios, and patterns relentlessly. I was a better reader back then than i am now, I think because we did it daily.

But back to the original point, I'm not convinced that the system we have of committees and all this is neccessarily better than 50 years ago when you'd walk into a music director's office and play for him. The difference is, obviously, that there are many, many more people that play trumpet and everything else than there were back then. So, we have this antiseptic approach that helps us find who misses the least notes from a prepared list.

But Music Directors seldom stay in one place anymore and with the sheer number of applicants around scheduling an audition for 4th trumpet would be a nightmare. In the old days you just asked the principal who he wanted.

Having said that, we do very often require people to play with the section at the MO in some part of the audition but they have a few minutes to look over the part so they can get ready.

This was one of the things Doc and I talked about recently, the idea that perfection seems to rule over all. We've talked about it many times on these thread, as well.

I don't like the current trend in trumpet playing. Yes, there are some wonderful players out there but I find the imagination of many of them sadly lacking. Sorry, I have to be honest. They leave me cold while everyone oohs and ahhs.

Give me a good soldier who's not afraid to get blood on his hands.

ML

Mikey

Amen. And don't be afraid to take risks.

In many of the younger players I hear these days, they are too worried about technical perfection, and don't have enough "soul" in their playing.

Siegtrmpt

Of course that was wrong to not fairly consider you for the gig. Times have changed a lot since the 60's as have the personel makeup of orchestras. Do you think, in general, that orchestras today are giving everyone a fair shot?

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trumpetmike

Manny - could it be that guys like you are partly responsible - you appear to be taking risks (in other words, the results are a step above what us mere mortals are capable of) yet the result is still perfection. You guys are just too good.

Saying that, I completely understand where you are coming from - with so many "split note contests" in terms of auditions and local competitions (and don't get me started on the split count in brass band contests) is it any wonder that many younger players concentrate upon getting a safe accurate performance rather than a potentially great risky one?
Having heard guys like Jens Lindemann, Al Vizzutti & Rex Richardson splat a note or two, it just goes to show that they are willing to take those little risks. Their performances are amazing and running that very fine line between greatness and disaster - they just know how to land on the right side of the line

But back to the topic - Manny, how would you run auditions, if you were given completely free choice of how to choose other players in the section (or your eventual replacement)?

the_crime

To add an "educator" point of view, although not necessarily relevant. When we think about assessment, an audition for instance, there is a significant movement towards standardization of test materials and criteria. Although there are many negative aspects of this sort of widespead evaluation, there are also some positive notes. In a world where everyone complains about "fairness", providing audition lists means that every applicant gets the same chance, or "test", so to speak.

The question really becomes of ethics. Do you subscribe to the idea that everyone should get a fair and equal chance, or that those who have the greatest musical abilities should be able to show it? There is also the perspective that the "great" will always rise above. Is this always true in a norm-referenced system, where even the lowest common denominator has a chance? Yet, is it "fair" to not give the norm the same chance as everyone else? Maybe that's what the first round is for...

The topic is so much greater than this little chunk of it. Although I like to maintain a level of objectivity, I definately am willing to admit that "fairness" often boggles my mind. Again, that is why we have some sort of due process, even if it means only at the first round.

tpter1

The_Crime: welcome to a fellow educator! I see things from much the same point of view; I think your comments are quite relevant. How many times do we educators audition or students? We have all-county auditions, all-state auditions, all-whatever auditions, seating auditions, those of us fortunate enough to have large enough programs might have auditions for select ensembles. So this discussion is actually quite relevant to us, as well, although in a somewhat different context.

Fairness and level playing field for all applicants is necessary. Does a list and blind audition solve the equity problem? Probably to a large extent it does. But, there also needs to be a freshness in the approach of one present at an audition. After all, we have about 10 minutes or so to separate ourselves from the other 150 or so auditionees all playing the same thing. We have to find a way in our playing, as the 1:30 candidate who plays for a comittee that's been listening since 10:30, to make the pencil, newpaper, coffee, donut or whatever, be put down. It could be that the prelims do need a predetermined list in order to accomplish just that: the identification of uniqueness that is being sought. In subsequent rounds (I've never ascended beyond first round, so I can't say from personal experience), it would seem necessary as a section candidate to demonstrate flexibility, listening skills, cooperativeness, etc. (All the things it takes to fit in to an already established section). I don't know as that can be determined by a prescribed list that has been practiced to death without the rest of the section present. For a principal, I would think it necessary for the finalists to posess musical leadership that is present without a word being spoken. That "Holy cow...he can play" thing; the quality that makes others want to sound like you.

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Siegtrmpt

The thing that impressed me was that they gave everyone willing to travel to DC a chance to play a few excerpts and advance to the next level for more consideration. Were there some players there that advanced that might not have been considered on the strength of a paper resume?

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robertwhite

I don't really know. I'm glad they took the time to listen to everyone, though. I think there were some folks advanced to the semi's automatically, but at least 3 of the 4 in the finals were there from square 1.