Mikey

So in this case, the process worked and was fair............

trumpetmike

It is nice to see an orchestra give people a decent chance. I have had friends make quite considerable journeys in order to audition only to be sent home almost immediately, with hardly a word of thanks. Frequently the auditions have been purely a formality, the group knew who they wanted and had only held them because they have to.

On the subject of fairness, I do agree that a list does make the process slightly fairer. Everyone goes in with the same knowledge of what is going to be asked. With no lists it would be very easy for the panel to ask the more complicated pieces to be played by the players they might not want to advance (this would be especially possible if the audition was not a blind one).
But, my original query wasn't about whether the idea of a list was a good thing, it was whether it was needed. Those players who are aiming for the top job should be able to play anything that is required, they shouldn't need to be told what pieces are needed to take the job.
If you were heading for a top job in the business world, you would be expected to do the research yourself and have the knowledge needed for the interview before you walk through the door. I doubt that they would send you a list of a dozen case studies that you should know about before you walk in - if you are entering their world, you should do you own research.

Clarino

Jamie Prophet walked straight out of the RNCM into his job at the BBC Phil. I guess without the list he wouldn't have had the experience necessary to know what would be expected of him.

I realise Jamie is an exception to the rule, and for most guys going for the top jobs the list isn't really needed, but it does at least give people who are unknown and have no experience achance to prove they are capable.

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trumpetmike

Jamie is an exceptional player, but it would be foolish to think that the RNCM training didn't include a stack of orchestral excerpt classes.
With guys like Murray Greig and John Miller teaching there, they would ensure that anyone going for the jobs could probably write the list before they saw it.

Having had a couple of excerpt lessons with Murray, they are hard work and he makes sure that you know not only how to play the notes but how they appear in context (which is something you should have done before the lesson - yes, I got a reprimand for not doing my research!)

robertwhite

And this is probably true for any competitive trumpeter here as well. To go back to your original question, the list really exists as a courtesy. You are right that other sorts of jobs don't extend similar courtesies, but orchestras are unique.

Auditions are stressful enough, so most orchestra's contracts have provisions about how the auditions are run to help candidates feel that they can do their best. It's a bit of empowerment, and it does reflect the conditions of playing in an orchestra, in that you usually know what you're going to play in advance. Not to say you never sight-read (some pops shows don't send their books ahead of time), but for the big pieces you know well in advance what to prepare for.

Sure, we should all be able to whip off the standard stuff anywhere, anytime. But lists are helpful, so there's no need to do away with them.

Some people do take the comfort of the list for granted, though. We had principal trumpet auditions last year here in Charlotte and on our list was Petrushka. Not "ballerina's dance", etc., just "Petrushka" (after all, we were due to play it a few months later). Well, in the finals we asked for some of the muted stuff in the fourth tableau, and I guess it was a mad dash to the practice rooms for some of the candidates to "learn" the excerpt. During the round, it was pretty obvious who learned the whole part and who hadn't. FWIW, the guy who won (Lyle Steelman) clearly HAD looked at it before (he nailed the crap out of it!) Of course, he nailed everything else, too.

rowuk

Another very AMERICAN reason for lists just jumped in my head:
if there is a list, the lawyers can't claim that someone didn't have a fair chance. In these days where common sense does not always prevail, even a musical director must cover his a$$. I haven't seen any statistics but remember a post about some "legal issues" in Los Angeles.

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robertwhite

I don't think there's much room for legal issues, actually, as regards the audition requirements. People audition voluntarily, after all. People often complain to the union if an audition is poorly run, but I have a hard time seeing how a lawsuit could come out of choice of excerpts.

There is a Code of Ethical Practices for auditions put out by ICSOM, but it's not legally binding. Orchestras can dictate how they want auditions to run via their CBA. Things like lists, etc., empower the committee to have influence in the process since the MD nearly always makes the final decision.

trumpetmike

Would be an interesting trial to watch - would they have to play the excerpts again in order to prove that they could play them better than somebody else?
Would the judge/jury have to prove his/her/their musical credentials?

wiseone2

How does one judge performances by artists? At the highest level of performance every one of the artists can play all the right notes. It is a question of taste on the part of the committee and the MD. It aint the Olympics
Wilmer

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Hags888

Bingo. Every orchestra has their own aesthetic. I don't think lists are necessarily a bad thing, especially in a massive first round where there is no easy way to sort through 150 trumpet players in the span of 1-2 days. I do think that in the later rounds orchestras need to ask for sight-reading and section playing. Even though I haven't made it to the later rounds yet in the few orchestral auditions I've taken, I assume those sorts of things generally happen.

When you've narrowed it down to the top players who have demonstrated they known the repertoire and style in the first round and played with musicality and accuracy, then it becomes an issue of aesthetics. Most of the players in the final rounds (I can only assume) are all fantastic players who know their s**t. How can you judge a person's artistic interpretation? It's very difficult, and IMO, it's largely the idea of taste as Wilmer stated above. I think luck and timing has much more to do with this process in the later stages than most of us want to admit. Sure, skill and technique and musicality and all of that play a role, and more so in the earlier rounds, but once you narrow it down to a small handful of trumpet players who are all top notch and outstanding, it would appear that "getting the job" is more about being lucky and already having what the audition panel is looking for in terms of artistic aesthetics.

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